Another new build thread: Need help with locations/cams

[The Grove Dad]

Hi all,

Long time lurker. Finally made an account.
I am building a 2 story home and would like to install some perimeter cams.

I was thinking of using a synology box (like DVA3221) to record low frame rate streams, and upon person detection (using its AI), record high frame rate streams for 5min prior/after, if possible.
I'll also use this box to run Home Assistant and hook person detection to alert mobile phones, etc.

What I need help with is camera selection and camera placement.
I dont need to be able to see the hairs on a persons face, but would like face detection from a good 10m (30') or so, infrared capability, and ONVIF.
I'm hoping this can be achieved with a budget of around AU$100 per camera from the Dahua supplier of this forum? Let me know if I'm dreaming and would need more expensive/higher res cameras.

Attached is pics of the lot with house placement, house blueprints, my suggested camera locations and an pic of the lot and roughly what I'd like the external cams to see.
Distances are meters (metric), location Australia (PAL), wiring would be Cat6 or Cat5e?, and "NBN" in the plans is the internal box for the fibre optic internet connection.

Any help with location suggestions and camera types would be appreciated.

 

[The Automation Guy]

You should play around with the IPVM Camera Calculator V3. Normally I would say to change the address to your actual location and overlay potential cameras in the correct places to see how the might work. However since this is new construction you don't have that luxury. Still, playing around with the calculator can help and you can manually add walls if you wanted to try to draw the outline of your home onto your physical location. I would especially turn on the "blind spot" portion of the calculator and enter in your estimated mounting heights and viewing heights. Every camera has a blind spot and this is one aspect that you are not taking into account with your drawings right now. You might find that the camera placements don't provide the close up coverage that you expect.

The calculator can certainly help figure out how far out your cameras might provide resolution high enough for identification. Pay close attention to the PPF numbers and try to keep coverage in the dark blue shading of the camera coverage. If you get into the light blue shading, the PPF is probably too low to provide sharp enough images to identify strangers.

 

[The Automation Guy]

As far as cameras, I think one of the best "generic" cameras are the 5442 series from Dahua or the equivalents that "Andy" offers here. There are fixed cameras (2.8, 3.6 and 6mm), and several models with different sized variable zoom options. Pretty much there is a camera to cover most "normal" needs and the 5442 is a 4mp (2k) camera that has really good low light/night time performance.

If your location will have a decent amount of ambient light at night (in a big city for example), then you might look at some of the Hikvision Colorview cameras. They are full time color cameras that have good low light performance, but still require some light to work well. The 5442 series cameras have IR built in and can provide images in complete darkness.

 

[Bitslizer]

Most typical camera at 2.8mm have like a 130 FOV, yours are not even 90 (3.6mm) you are looking for 6mm or vari-focal if you are not flexible on those FOV which would cost more

 

[mat200]

Hi all,

Long time lurker. Finally made an account.
I am building a 2 story home and would like to install some perimeter cams.

I was thinking of using a synology box (like DVA3221) to record low frame rate streams, and upon person detection (using its AI), record high frame rate streams for 5min prior/after, if possible.
I'll also use this box to run Home Assistant and hook person detection to alert mobile phones, etc.

What I need help with is camera selection and camera placement.
I dont need to be able to see the hairs on a persons face, but would like face detection from a good 10m (30') or so, infrared capability, and ONVIF.
I'm hoping this can be achieved with a budget of around AU$100 per camera from the Dahua supplier of this forum? Let me know if I'm dreaming and would need more expensive/higher res cameras.

Attached is pics of the lot with house placement, house blueprints, my suggested camera locations and an pic of the lot and roughly what I'd like the external cams to see.
Distances are meters (metric), location Australia (PAL), wiring would be Cat6 or Cat5e?, and "NBN" in the plans is the internal box for the fibre optic internet connection.

Any help with location suggestions and camera types would be appreciated.

Welcome @The Grove Dad

I would plan for more cameras.

As a start:

Front door area: drop a couple of cat6 cables to the doorbell area, face level camera, and one camera which has an overview of the area and can keep an eye on the mail / package drop off area.

Other doors:
One face level by each door, one overview covering approach to door

Garage door:
One camera on each side of the door

Other front of house: ( I normally expect the front of the house to be the most critical )
One camera cover each side of the house.
1-2 cameras covering the street in front of the house.

 

[The Grove Dad]

...

Hey mate, thanks. I've been using that calculator, but I will have to draw the walls to take another look.
I was keeping blind spots in mind, as I was placing everything around 9 foot high and not needing to see 100m in the distance. I would definately not mount higher unless for a good reason, and all cams I would have angled fairly low, so that I can catch faces and see what the person is doing when close to the mounted wall.
I'll take another look. Thank you for the cam suggestion!

Most typical camera at 2.8mm have like a 130 FOV, yours are not even 90 (3.6mm) you are looking for 6mm or vari-focal if you are not flexible on those FOV which would cost more

The FOV was what I wanted to cover. I'm happy to go with wider FOV for standard cams, but I'm also keeping in mind that the wider you go, the less detail you will have for objects.
How's placement positioning?

 

[The Grove Dad]

Welcome @The Grove Dad
I would plan for more cameras.
As a start:

Front door area: drop a couple of cat6 cables to the doorbell area, face level camera, and one camera which has an overview of the area and can keep an eye on the mail / package drop off area.

Other doors:
One face level by each door, one overview covering approach to door

Garage door:
One camera on each side of the door

Other front of house: ( I normally expect the front of the house to be the most critical )
One camera cover each side of the house.
1-2 cameras covering the street in front of the house.

Thanks for these suggestions and for the greeting! I should have mentioned the house location is in a fairly safe suburb in Australia. I do take your feedback seriously, but I also dont want to spend $ for the sake of it.
One crap thing about our builder, is they wont just run cables or provisions, and wont let us use a 3rd party sparky. So that means running no cables unless they're plugged into something. I'm going to question this again, however, I have a feeling they wont budge.

Re suggestions:
Front door. I think I have that reasonably covered with a 2590mm high cam, ceiling mounted above the door handle. No?
I know I dont have the doorbell cam, but may look into this.

Side and back door areas are wall-to-wall sliding glass doors, so not much space to put a face level cam, except the wall next to it in one location. Plus face height is slightly uglier. Is the 2590mm high eave mount not sufficient? I thought it would still catch faces as they approach? Do you have examples of neat looking wall mount cams near doors or is that not a thing?

Whats the reasoning for 1 cam either side of garage, or is it just to add more chance to catch a face?

I may consider adding one down the side of the house that has room to walk hey, as per your recommendation.

 

[mat200]

Thanks for these suggestions and for the greeting! I should have mentioned the house location is in a fairly safe suburb in Australia. I do take your feedback seriously, but I also dont want to spend $ for the sake of it.
One crap thing about our builder, is they wont just run cables or provisions, and wont let us use a 3rd party sparky. So that means running no cables unless they're plugged into something. I'm going to question this again, however, I have a feeling they wont budge.

Re suggestions:
Front door. I think I have that reasonably covered with a 2590mm high cam, ceiling mounted above the door handle. No?
I know I dont have the doorbell cam, but may look into this.

Side and back door areas are wall-to-wall sliding glass doors, so not much space to put a face level cam, except the wall next to it in one location. Plus face height is slightly uglier. Is the 2590mm high eave mount not sufficient? I thought it would still catch faces as they approach? Do you have examples of neat looking wall mount cams near doors or is that not a thing?

Whats the reasoning for 1 cam either side of garage, or is it just to add more chance to catch a face?

I may consider adding one down the side of the house that has room to walk hey, as per your recommendation.

Hi @The Grove Dad

Now is the time to do the cabling right.. if you need to buy the cheapest cameras for extra locations if this is how they play the game.

2.6M high is slightly higher than we recommend.

For the doors, face level is now more critical than ever due to masks and caps / hoodies.
( I like the 2.8mm lens and mini-dome wedge camera for face level cameras which the subject will be right in front of )

Ideally you test the locations before you do a final commit.

We should have a number of good images here on site.. try the section Installation Pics

 

[SouthernYankee]

Go Slow, learn as you go.

Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
Doing it right the first time will save you money.
Test do not guess

============================================
My house is a little over kill

1) the front door needs three cameras, one doorbell camera, one pointing at the package drop area, one pointing back to the front door.
2) the garage entrance Needs two cameras pointing out mounted no higher than the top of the garage door.
3) the inside of the garage need two cameras one point at the garage door and one point at the house entrance
4) each entrance to the house must be covered by a camera.
5) each camera must be covered by another camera, If i can destroy a camera it must be covered, recorded by another camera.
6) in my house all public areas inside are covered, kitchen, living room, dining room, halls, game room, den
7) all outside doors are covered by a camera inside, pointing out.
============================================

My standard welcome to the forum message.

Read Study Plan before spending money
Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact. Cameras are NOT a deterrent.

Please read the IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes and other items in the IP Cam Talk Wiki. (read on a real computer, not a phone). The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) in the wiki also.


Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras if you need good low light cameras.
3) Start with a good variable focus camera, so you test for the correct lens,lighting, camera placement.
4) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
5) Do not use wifi cameras.
6) Do not use cloud storage
7) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
8) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
9) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
10) Do not use reolink, ring, nest, Arlo, Vivint cameras (they are junk), no cloud cameras
11) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
12) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
13) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
14) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 7ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
15) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
16) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator V3
17) POE list PoE Switch Suggestion List
18) Camera Sensor size, bigger is general better Sensor Size Chart
19) Camera lens size, a bigger number give more range but less field of view. Which Security Camera Lens Size Should I Buy?
20) verify your camera placement, have a friend wearing a hoodie, ball cap and sunglasses looking down approach the house, can you identify them at night ?
21) DO NOT UPGRADE your NVR or camera unless you absolutely have a problem that needs to be fixed and known what you are doing, if you do you will turn it into a brick !!


For a new build house drop way more ethernet cables than you think you will need, drop Two cables to each location. You may want to add IR lights in the future, or multiple cameras at a location,

Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
Doing it right the first time will save you money.
Test do not guess

 

[sebastiantombs]

Keep in mind that with a 2.8mm lens to get positive identification the subject needs to be within three meters with a straight on face shot. At 2.6 meters up it's going to be impossible to get a face shot, at all, within that three meter constraint.

 

[Bitslizer]

Regarding test mount.... not sure if you use vinyl siding there. But these are pretty good for temp testing as they are easily removable without drilling holes or even semi-permanent installation (for say a high enough mount where you are not worry about someone reaching and pulling/stealing the camera....4...5m off the ground...

Amazon.com : Solar Panel No Hole Needed Vinyl Siding Clips, Wireless Security Cameras Outdoor Surveillance System Hanger Hooks for Mounting Solar Powered Panel and WiFi Home Outside Cam (20 Pack) : Camera & Photo

Amazon.com : Solar Panel No Hole Needed Vinyl Siding Clips, Wireless Security Cameras Outdoor Surveillance System Hanger Hooks for Mounting Solar Powered Panel and WiFi Home Outside Cam (20 Pack) : Camera & Photo

www.amazon.com

and yes, run extra cables for the same drop.... I ran 1 to each corner of the house and now found that I'm wishing for more, end up using POE extender switch or combiner/splitter where an extra cable would have been cleaner and less complicated

 

[SouthernYankee]

You use a 2x4 and a buck of rocks for a test mount.
A camera mounted 4 meters off the ground will tell you what happened, but not who did it. If the camera dies catching the bad guy then it did its job.

 

[The Grove Dad]

Keep in mind that with a 2.8mm lens to get positive identification the subject needs to be within three meters with a straight on face shot. At 2.6 meters up it's going to be impossible to get a face shot, at all, within that three meter constraint.

Perfect info. Thank you! Is there a calc for this kind of info with different FLs?

Regarding test mount....

You use a 2x4 and a buck of rocks for a test mount.
A camera mounted 4 meters off the ground will tell you what happened, but not who did it. If the camera dies catching the bad guy then it did its job.

Thanks. As its a fresh build, and wiring must be done during build, I cant easily test mount and view input.
By the sounds of this thread, eave/ceiling mounted may be too high and I should be considering wall mounts at 2000mm or something.

 

[mat200]

Perfect info. Thank you! Is there a calc for this kind of info with different FLs?
..

Hi The Grove Dad,

Check out the DORI section of the cliff notes.

The info iirc is in feet, so it will require some conversion to metric.

 

[Bitslizer]

You use a 2x4 and a buck of rocks for a test mount.
A camera mounted 4 meters off the ground will tell you what happened, but not who did it. If the camera dies catching the bad guy then it did its job.

Well, not every single camera need to be 4 ft high.... Garage cam 4 ft high would likely by block by any SUV/Truck in the driveway

 

[Bitslizer]

You use a 2x4 and a buck of rocks for a test mount.
A camera mounted 4 meters off the ground will tell you what happened, but not who did it. If the camera dies catching the bad guy then it did its job.

New 2nd floor testing location for lpr cam mounted with the siding clips. Would like to see the cement bucket and 2x4 up there

 

[The Grove Dad]

I think I'll just go with @EMPIRETECANDY 's T2431T for all locations, in a variety of 2.8 & 3.6mm.
These are 4MP and I feel thats good enough for my small property and needs?
I'll have a motion sensor flood light on the garage anyway, and a small ceiling-mounted motion sensor to activate the porch light, which should cover getting decent facial recognition at night as they approach the porch/garage.
Wont be relying on the poorer low light quality of this cheap cam that way.

I'll run cat6 from all locations, to an 8 port wall plate/patch board in the downstairs walk-in broom cupboard, and house the Synology DVA3221 box and PoE switch there too (up high or somewhere out of sight).
Box will be connected to the internet, but have VLAN for cameras/switch.
All mounts will be at 2590mm (8.5 foot), so I'm aware it wont be the best for getting a good face shot at the door, but I need it to look decent too.

I think I can set the box to start recording higher FPS when a person is detected, and alert our phones when that person is unrecognised. That's kind of like a doorbell feature, besides having the camera at chest height.
"D7b" in my internal plans will still catch intruders as they come up the stairs too. I am aware by then, it is no longer a deterrent.

This is a decently fancy neighbourhood, so I don't need anything over the top or anything that makes the house devalue.
I just want to be able to know what goes on on my property, if anything suspicious happens, as well as have the facial identification/alert system and use the box for Home Assistant and IFTTT, which can be shown on the tablet we will use for air/light automation too.