Best Buy, Home Depot and Lowes Drop Dahua Lorex Oct 25, 2021 - IPVM and TechCrunch reports

[fenderman]

@fenderman IPCamTalk literally runs a store selling Dahua and Hikvision products, so accusing IPVM of bias is akin to a man in a glass house throwing stones, that fair?

I think the PRC is a danger to the security of the United States and other liberal democracies and supporting companies like Dahua and Hikvision (with an extensive track record of human rights abuses and unethical activities, e.g., fever cameras) is wrong.

You dont know how IPCT is run and what if any bias I could even have. I encourage everyone to properly secure their cameras. You dont because you know your userbase cannot. Nevertheless I am explaining to my users the reasons why you heavily trash hik/dahua. It has nothing to do with the PRC and everything to do with your paid members.
I am certain you buy many products that support the PRC, despite more expensive US made alternatives. You refuse to admit that most of the alternatives to dahua hik have similar vulnerabilities.

 

[john-ipvm]

@fenderman if you don't have any bias simply make clear that you do not financially benefit in any way from the sales of Dahua and Hikvison on IPCamTalk. If you say so, I will believe you.

I am certain you buy many products that support the PRC

No, that's wrong. We implemented a policy recently not to buy PRC products and I took the lead personally in that.


I've already explained my motivation and have been transparent with our business model. If you want to think or say that I am biased, that's your opinion. I am happy to answer other questions or concerns, etc. and I respect interacting with the IPCamTalk community.

 

[fenderman]

@fenderman if you don't have any bias simply make clear that you do not financially benefit in any way from the sales of Dahua and Hikvison on IPCamTalk. If you say so, I will believe you.



No, that's wrong. We implemented a policy recently not to buy PRC products and I took the lead personally in that.


I've already explained my motivation and have been transparent with our business model. If you want to think or say that I am biased, that's your opinion. I am happy to answer other questions or concerns, etc. and I respect interacting with the IPCamTalk community.

I do not financial benefit from the sales of hik and dahua on ipcamtalk or anywhere else. You have been trashing dahua/hik for years before you implemented any PRC policy. Why do you limit your policy to products over 50 dollars? Why do you continue to review products made in china, thus encouraging their purchase if the reviews are good? Why dont you simply refuse to review and buy anything made in china? Do you check every korean made product to ensure they have no china made parts?

 

[john-ipvm]

First you said "I am certain you buy many products that support the PRC," then I informed you of our policy and my personal decision so then you moved the goalpost to what we did for years before, and then you speculate about components of products.

As for "trashing", IPVM criticizes lots of companies both in the US and in the PRC, e.g., our extensive investigative reporting and criticism of the US video surveillance largest startup Verkada and various others.

We continue to test and review products fairly across the industry and accurately report what works well or not. If Hikvision is good or better in a test, we report it. It's that simple. That's fundamental to our integrity and providing quality information. We can and do both - fairly reporting on technical performance and critically reporting on unethical activities, like Dahua's Uyghur Warnings that we exposed.

 

[fenderman]

First you said "I am certain you buy many products that support the PRC," then I informed you of our policy and my personal decision so then you moved the goalpost to what we did for years before, and then you speculate about components of products.

As for "trashing", IPVM criticizes lots of companies both in the US and in the PRC, e.g., our extensive investigative reporting and criticism of the US video surveillance largest startup Verkada and various others.

We continue to test and review products fairly across the industry and accurately report what works well or not. If Hikvision is good or better in a test, we report it. It's that simple. That's fundamental to our integrity and providing quality information. We can and do both - fairly reporting on technical performance and critically reporting on unethical activities, like Dahua's Uyghur Warnings that we exposed.

I didnt move any goalposts. My original assertion was correct, not only do you buy many PRC products but you review them so as to encourage thousands of others to buy them.

 

[Mike]

I do not financial benefit from the sales of hik and dahua on ipcamtalk or anywhere else. You have been trashing dahua/hik for years before you implemented any PRC policy. Why do you limit your policy to products over 50 dollars? Why do you continue to review products made in china, thus encouraging their purchase if the reviews are good? Why dont you simply refuse to review and buy anything made in china? Do you check every korean made product to ensure they have no china made parts?

+1, good points @fenderman

@john-ipvm , @fenderman hasn't made a cent off this site, he's never had a reason to be bias. I thought you knew I run the store, the ads, IPCT+, servers, etc.? Also, Hik and Dahua are not the only options available in the IPCT Store, Uniview is also for sale, which as you know has NDAAA compliant options. And I agree with him, it does seem as though IPVM has been trashing Dahua / Hik for years, before the ban was ever even thought about. You guys cancelled Hikvision

Luckily there are other available options for small time installers and DIY'ers

 

[Teken]

If I (we/IPVM) can answer any questions on this, let me know.

So a reasonable person would take this unsolicited reply from you as genuine and sincere.

No, our team does hundreds of hours of original research that no one else does in video surveillance. We generously provide IPCamTalk members unlocked free access to many tests but I am not obligated to give you a copy of the report.

Yet when asked to provide the same information on this forum for all to read your reply is - no?!?! In case the IPC members are not aware the link John has provided goes directly to his website. The first thing that happens when you go to view the information is a pop up box telling you to input a business email!?!?

Why would you need a business email to read information you stated was available free to view??? Why does your website enforce the use of a business email vs any other personal email?? The answer is clear to me you're simply trolling and shilling for your website!

Your reply is you're not obligated to give me a copy of the report than why the fuck did you offer the same for the IPC members to view??? As others noted your reply that a so called security professional would not isolate and keep their security video off the Internet because of whatever affirms what others here have said today.

That is, these are not true professionals they are simply wire pulling monkeys too stupid to learn basic networking and best practices as it relates to protecting their clients internal network!

There are key standards as it relates to security and that is trust nothing, test, validate, and keep testing.

At the end of the day going out of your way to offer the IPC members information. Only to turn around to say no is just fucken lame!

 

[garycrist]

One of the first things governments do is de-humanize the next victims of their war. Not only bash the products
but, I expect this to devolve into the PRC. eats dogs next (always attack their food with propaganda). Go tell Jewish
people to but a Lincoln automobile,or almost any German product.

Governments get us all to be shills for their corrupt purposes.
I started with Swann crap, I sure as hell am not going to buy NAZI products assembled out of the same
parts the other guys use as there are only so many foundries.

Now Brandon is worried about Communion. Whenever those "Grey Haired Bastards" in Washington start worring
about their afterlife, time for us to "bend over and take one for the Gipper".

The politicians of the world have put us at this junction and time is short!
As an old sage once put it, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s".

 

[john-ipvm]

not only do you buy many PRC products but you review them so as to encourage thousands of others to buy them.

We do not 'encourage" people to buy. Unlike IPCamTalk, IPVM does not sell cameras. We do not use affiliate links to profit off the sale of cameras. We don't accept advertising or sponsorship from manufacturers, etc.

We fairly test products to accurately understand how they perform so that people know, good, bad or indifferent, how they work.

That is, these are not true professionals they are simply wire pulling monkeys too stupid to learn basic networking and best practices as it relates to protecting their clients internal network!

Do you realize who Hikvision USA's core dealer base is? Generally, small dealers that have little education or interest in networking and cybersecurity. Read their comments directly here 100 Hikvision Partners Ask US FCC Not To Ban Hikvision

I am not defending or supporting them. I am sharing with you the reality that the "industry" cannot be trusted or depended upon to thoroughly and properly secure products that are designed and encouraged to be connected to the Internet. I wish that was not the case, I wish more people were more sophisticated about networking and security, as many of you on IP Cam Talk are, but that's not the reality. Fair/no?

 

[David L]

This sound's more like blaming the Gun for the Murder. Name one product, including Ring, that is Not vulnerable to Poor Network Setup/Security, they All are. You can sell a person a car but how they drive is up to the individual...I can go On and On...

 

[TVille]

We do not 'encourage" people to buy. Unlike IPCamTalk, IPVM does not sell cameras. We do not use affiliate links to profit off the sale of cameras. We don't accept advertising or sponsorship from manufacturers, etc.

We fairly test products to accurately understand how they perform so that people know, good, bad or indifferent, how they work.

Do you realize who Hikvision USA's core dealer base is? Generally, small dealers that have little education or interest in networking and cybersecurity. Read their comments directly here 100 Hikvision Partners Ask US FCC Not To Ban Hikvision

I am not defending or supporting them. I am sharing with you the reality that the "industry" cannot be trusted or depended upon to thoroughly and properly secure products that are designed and encouraged to be connected to the Internet. I wish that was not the case, I wish more people were more sophisticated about networking and security, as many of you on IP Cam Talk are, but that's not the reality. Fair/no?

Talk about moving the goal posts! After your earlier statement:

I don't think there is any feasible way to stop those people from using devices designed to work on the Internet by the manufacturer in any way (including port forwarding) to stop them."​

​

So you went from cameras are inherently insecure to Hikvision cameras are insecure and the folks that use them are too stupid to secure them.

@john-ipvm You may have a successful business model with IPVM, and it may provide information some find valuable. If you truly want to show, to this crowd, that you are unbiased, and test things fairly, then show us a comparison test of a Dahua IPC-5442 series, of equivalent Hikvision, with what you consider a comparable product. Made in China, Taiwan, wherever. If you really do fair reviews, then this would allow the folks on here to see that. If, on the other hand, your reviews are more like the guys pushing ReoLink on YouTube, then that will show as well. I will be more than willing to provide a "business" email address to get copies of the two reports.

Please select the reviews with similar resolution and lens, so the FoV are almost the same. I fully expect the Dahua/Hikvision to be half the price of the other camera, which is fine.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Anyone really care or know Uighur in XInjiang? I have been there for many times, a really beautiful place without Racial extremism, it had badly attacks since Taliban penetration in Xinjiang. Those rubbish kill normal people. I don't want to talk too much about politics here. But tell something that i found or experienced.

The Chinese government gave them money to let their children go to school. Some Western politicians think this is genocide. Give them pesticides and fertilizers for them to plant, and they changed to alcoholic beverages. Ordinary people are slaughtered only because they are a different ethnic group. I watched a video many years ago in which a bunch of beasts killed pregnant women and took out the baby in their belly. From then on I felt that they had to give something.
The Chinese government allows them to have many children, but we Han people can only have one. They gave birth to many children and did not go to school, hiding at home to learn extremism.
The Han people can't wear swords, they can. But they use knives to kill people.
The Han people think that we are the targets of discrimination by the Chinese government. The Han people account for 98% in China.

Xinjiang is the one of the most beautiful place in the world, welcome to visit and see the reall Xinjiang.

I always use iPhone and take pics in Xinjiang, US tech, i am proud of it. Most people here(China mainland, HONGKONG,Taiwan) love US tech, love US movie, NBA and NASA, this is powerful culture, no one can stole from. People are not stupid though the gov balabala...

By the way, Don't forget All Chinese Gov department use Windows, lol.
Can't sell huawei or dahua or Hikvision sometimes is a Negotiation weight, politicals are dirty, same everywhere. One day Chinese gov say i can't use iPhone or can't go to Sam's, i will feel bad.

A Uighur little boy, we shared with him watermelon. His parents open a resturant.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Democracy and free, China still has a long way to go. Life is short, China become No.1 or No.2 is not really important to most of the Chinese.
US has the most powerful military in the world, right now China even can't produce any Civil aircraft with its own tech. This is the real China.
There has a joke, anyone really care about those extremists, we can send them to those countries who support us, we buy them tickets, lol.

Anyway, most people in Xinjiang are very honest and kind people. Not the fake news said all slaves.

 

[Teken]

We do not 'encourage" people to buy. Unlike IPCamTalk, IPVM does not sell cameras. We do not use affiliate links to profit off the sale of cameras. We don't accept advertising or sponsorship from manufacturers, etc.

We fairly test products to accurately understand how they perform so that people know, good, bad or indifferent, how they work.



Do you realize who Hikvision USA's core dealer base is? Generally, small dealers that have little education or interest in networking and cybersecurity. Read their comments directly here 100 Hikvision Partners Ask US FCC Not To Ban Hikvision

I am not defending or supporting them. I am sharing with you the reality that the "industry" cannot be trusted or depended upon to thoroughly and properly secure products that are designed and encouraged to be connected to the Internet. I wish that was not the case, I wish more people were more sophisticated about networking and security, as many of you on IP Cam Talk are, but that's not the reality. Fair/no?

You didn’t answer the core question of why you offered unsolicited information which no one asked for. To then turn around and ask for a business email to see the same?!?

When asked to provide this information to the forum members here you said no?!?

The reason(s) this forum and many others exist is to share information. With information comes knowledge that can be applied at a later date. It appears you came into this thread for whatever reason to provide information when in reality it was merely to shill for your website!

 

[fenderman]

We do not 'encourage" people to buy. Unlike IPCamTalk, IPVM does not sell cameras. We do not use affiliate links to profit off the sale of cameras. We don't accept advertising or sponsorship from manufacturers, etc.

We fairly test products to accurately understand how they perform so that people know, good, bad or indifferent, how they work.



Do you realize who Hikvision USA's core dealer base is? Generally, small dealers that have little education or interest in networking and cybersecurity. Read their comments directly here 100 Hikvision Partners Ask US FCC Not To Ban Hikvision

I am not defending or supporting them. I am sharing with you the reality that the "industry" cannot be trusted or depended upon to thoroughly and properly secure products that are designed and encouraged to be connected to the Internet. I wish that was not the case, I wish more people were more sophisticated about networking and security, as many of you on IP Cam Talk are, but that's not the reality. Fair/no?

Poor job taking my words out of context. Once again, by reviewing a hik camera and giving it a rating, you encourage sales based on price/performance value. Your (expensive) membership base is also made up of "small dealers that have little education or interest in networking and cybersecurity". You sell classes that are low level network 101, something that any installer should already know.
You are supporting hik/dahua PRC by reviewing them. You review them because it makes money. Stop with the altruistic bullshit and cute promo videos in a attempt to pretend to care. You sell an expensive membership, you cater to your users. You directly profit from encouraging sales of hik/dahua and many other china based products.

 

[john-ipvm]

show us a comparison test of a Dahua IPC-5442 series, of equivalent Hikvision, with what you consider a comparable product

Happy to do so. Is there a consensus of what models IPCamTalk members want to see tested?

Stop with the altruistic bullshit and cute promo videos in a attempt to pretend to care

Fenderman, your thundering style of shouting down those you disagree with does not affect me and does not strengthen your argument. We take our role in researching and exposing unethical activity, seriously around the world. For example, we paid for our Government Director to go to the UK to testify at the Uyghur Tribunal last month:


We lose money from things like this but it's core to our mission. Feel free to shout at me again about "altruistic bullshit" but if you actually look at what we do, we do numerous things that forego revenue and lose money from, but we do it because it is the right and ethical thing to do.

Btw, as for @EMPIRETECANDY post, it has numerous false assertions most obviously, "The Chinese government allows them to have many children, but we Han people can only have one," By contrast, state-news Xinhua announced a three child policy earlier this year Xinhua Headlines: China unveils details of three-child policy, support measures - Xinhua | English.news.cn

 

[user8963]

Happy to do so. Is there a consensus of what models IPCamTalk members want to see tested?

there are only rare vendors who uses the a good mp/sensorsize ratio.

a comparable model for the 5442 bullet would be the IPC2A24SE-ADZK-I0 from uniview (or older models with 1/1.8 4mp).

in my opinion there are zero turrets available with this sensor , but i wouldnt bet.

No matter if HP put money into uniview, its still controlled by chinese government and according to YOU they also track your Ughyur friends, so its more apple to apple comparison LOL

 

[user8963]

but we Han people can only have one," By contrast, state-news Xinhua announced a three child policy earlier this year

i love if leftys try to argue with natives who should know better. But its the same as always with IPVM. Western world thinks to know anything better because they have all their CNN knowledge.

according to my chinese friends there are two ways to have more than 1 child. Money and if you and your wife are a product of the 1 child politics (in 2nd generation?). Also some ethnic minorities and rural areas are allowed to have more. There might be some other ways/recent changes, but china is still controlling it for most chinese. also an annoucement isnt a fact. China is lying the all the time. who trust or care what they announce? Also you have absolute no benefit if you are in your 40s or later and china announce now in 2021 that you are allowed to have three children LOL.

 

[TVille]

Happy to do so. Is there a consensus of what models IPCamTalk members want to see tested?

From my standpoint, and I am not a camera expert, I would say go with any 5442 fixed lens if you can match the lens/FoV. If not, go with the varifocal to match the FoV. I believe turrets are the best style of camera, being compact, not having the water and dome issues. Although security "experts" will clamber all over the domes, ignorance being what it is. I can backup that last sentence as I managed large projects with security components performed by an international design firm. I was not impressed.

I think starting with the T5442TM-AS would be good. Since you are the expert, and have tested a wide variety of cameras, why don't you suggest a couple of cameras that are reasonably priced and have similar characteristics? And by reasonably priced I mean by other standards, not Hikvision/Dahua, but most likely at the lower end, i.e., not $1,000 per camera. I would also expect them to have similar features - that is, work with an NVR/BI, not require cloud service, self contained with IR, and most likely POE.

 

[bigredfish]

One of the nagging problems I had with many of the IPVM tests/comparisons was the selection of “equal” models that weren’t equal.

For instance, the low light performance of a Dahua 5442T-ASE is quite different than a 5442T-ASE-NI , Both fixed lens 3.6mm but quite different in nighttime color mode.

Since I cancelled my subscription I no longer have access to the comparisons but it seemed to ocurr frequently. That and the aggravating use of domes that most who truly understand the difference don’t want.

I seem to recall John saying something about only being able to use US models, which leaves well over 50% of Dahua cameras off the list, frequently the newer and best models.