Building a new home. Want a great surveillance system

[mecham56]

Hey everyone!

First off, I have to say I am completely blown away at all the information on these forums. I've always considered myself as someone who is "tech-y", but I was suddenly hit with that wall of knowledge that punches you and says "You don't know what you don't know!" The level of knowledge here is completely off the charts and that's why I'm reaching out here. My wife and I built a home in 2016 and thought our electrician wired the house for ethernet decently well, until we needed to use it and realized that wasn't true at all. I thought Nest cameras were the coolest thing ever. Plug into power, connect to wifi and you're golden with awesome smart detections, up to 4k, and 10-day 24/7 recording history. Given what we do for a living, we had 12 nest cameras inside and outside our home. Needless to say, it hurt our internet speed. I loved having nearly the whole house covered (we've had a few attempts at break-ins and other scenarios) and it gave me some peace of mind... until the internet went out. Well, now that I'm here and have scoured the forums for the past 3 days, I know that I don't know ANYTHING when it comes to IP cameras, NVR, etc.

My wife and I are in a unique position where we are building a home and we want to do our wiring and surveillance RIGHT this time. I've consulted a few "Smart Home Automation" companies in our area. They all use the Control4 system to control lights, doors, speakers, blinds, and sometimes cameras. I asked them what camera systems they use and they said either, Lorex or Luma. From what I've read here, those are basically stripped down versions of Dahua Cameras. So, I'm not 100% they would be able to help if we did something different with the exception of actually installing the cameras.

From what I'm reading here is that the Dahua 5442 series is the current "king" right now, but there are still so many options I'm a little overwhelmed. I'm not sure which types of cameras to get and where to put them?

I saw LinusTechTips do a video on the UniFi Protect G4-Pro camera and it looked like the software was very similar to Nest and has some smart detection features as well. That being said, I know that 4K isn't necessarily as good as it seems especially in low-light. The optical zoom is great, but I'm still trying to find out if it can zoom based on detection and not only by manual control.

I know this is getting long, but I guess when it comes down to it, I was wondering if I could get some help picking out a system that would be good for 80% me and 20% my wife. User friendliness is important (I thought I was relatively smart until I came here ) So if she needed/wanted to use it, it wouldn't be too difficult to access recordings. 24/7 recording and 10-15 days of storage is important. Mobile and desktop monitoring/reviewing is important. I'm more comfortable with Macs, but I do have a PC and can get a dedicated PC if necessary. Night time recording is important, plate detection I would say is of lower importance. Basically, I'm looking for a PoE with the user-friendliness of Nest and then better cameras.

I've attached a tentative floor/landscape plan for reference if that helps with anything. Oh, and I forgot to mention, let's assume a budget of $5000 for everything. Cameras, NVR, PC, Software. That's flexible but obviously I'd like to stay lower.

I wanted to say thank you in advanced. I've already learned so much more than I did before finding this forum and I'm extremely humbled by the knowledge of those who are here.

 

[mat200]

Hey everyone!

First off, I have to say I am completely blown away at all the information on these forums. I've always considered myself as someone who is "tech-y", but I was suddenly hit with that wall of knowledge that punches you and says "You don't know what you don't know!" The level of knowledge here is completely off the charts and that's why I'm reaching out here. My wife and I built a home in 2016 and thought our electrician wired the house for ethernet decently well, until we needed to use it and realized that wasn't true at all. I thought Nest cameras were the coolest thing ever. Plug into power, connect to wifi and you're golden with awesome smart detections, up to 4k, and 10-day 24/7 recording history. Given what we do for a living, we had 12 nest cameras inside and outside our home. Needless to say, it hurt our internet speed. I loved having nearly the whole house covered (we've had a few attempts at break-ins and other scenarios) and it gave me some peace of mind... until the internet went out. Well, now that I'm here and have scoured the forums for the past 3 days, I know that I don't know ANYTHING when it comes to IP cameras, NVR, etc.

My wife and I are in a unique position where we are building a home and we want to do our wiring and surveillance RIGHT this time. I've consulted a few "Smart Home Automation" companies in our area. They all use the Control4 system to control lights, doors, speakers, blinds, and sometimes cameras. I asked them what camera systems they use and they said either, Lorex or Luma. From what I've read here, those are basically stripped down versions of Dahua Cameras. So, I'm not 100% they would be able to help if we did something different with the exception of actually installing the cameras.

From what I'm reading here is that the Dahua 5442 series is the current "king" right now, but there are still so many options I'm a little overwhelmed. I'm not sure which types of cameras to get and where to put them?

I saw LinusTechTips do a video on the UniFi Protect G4-Pro camera and it looked like the software was very similar to Nest and has some smart detection features as well. That being said, I know that 4K isn't necessarily as good as it seems especially in low-light. The optical zoom is great, but I'm still trying to find out if it can zoom based on detection and not only by manual control.

I know this is getting long, but I guess when it comes down to it, I was wondering if I could get some help picking out a system that would be good for 80% me and 20% my wife. User friendliness is important (I thought I was relatively smart until I came here ) So if she needed/wanted to use it, it wouldn't be too difficult to access recordings. 24/7 recording and 10-15 days of storage is important. Mobile and desktop monitoring/reviewing is important. I'm more comfortable with Macs, but I do have a PC and can get a dedicated PC if necessary. Night time recording is important, plate detection I would say is of lower importance. Basically, I'm looking for a PoE with the user-friendliness of Nest and then better cameras.

I've attached a tentative floor/landscape plan for reference if that helps with anything. Oh, and I forgot to mention, let's assume a budget of $5000 for everything. Cameras, NVR, PC, Software. That's flexible but obviously I'd like to stay lower.

I wanted to say thank you in advanced. I've already learned so much more than I did before finding this forum and I'm extremely humbled by the knowledge of those who are here.

Welcome @mecham56

I see you have a corner lot, a 3 car garage, parking for a boat...

you have a lot of exposure on that parameter, you will need a lot of cameras for decent coverage.

Right now the most important part of the job is to wire positions for cameras fairly well.. cliff notes and SouthernYankee's notes cover that well.

Basically over cable... N+1

Do feel free to share your experiences on building out a smart home with security alarms and cameras.

 

[mecham56]

@mat200 Thanks! We're planning on taking Cat6 throughout the house. I want to make sure we have a couple lines going to each place, but we will see what that cost looks like. Ha!

 

[looney2ns]

If the builder will allow it, do the wiring yourself. Otherwise look for an electrician that is certified for low voltage. Check his references closely.
There are a lot of wire pullers out there, with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and if it can be screwed up, they will.
Have you broke ground yet?

As mat suggested, closely study the Cliff Notes.
Also, study this attachment.

 

[SouthernYankee]

Search is your friend. There are a lot of post on new home construction.
------------------------------------
in the google search window enter.. site:ipcamtalk.com ?????? ..where ?????? is the items/terms you are interested in.
Example site:ipcamtalk.com home construction
------------------------------------

1) more cameras are better
2) do two ethernet wire drops at each location.
3) buy or rent a good quality cable tester, test each drop the day after it is installed. Do not wait to test
4) one camera on each side of each garage door, mount no higher than the top of the door.
5) Door bell camera, wired, Two more cameras at the front door, one on the package drop area, one pointing back from the over hang point at the door.
6) I have inside cameras in all public areas, inside point at all the entry doors. kitchen, living room, dining room kids nursey...
7) run all wires to a closet, then closet must have ventilation and AC.
8) A wired alarm system, with PIR motion detectors, break glass sensors, open door sensors, open widow sensors, multiple loud (+120DB siren) in the front and rear of the house, I use outside sirens inside also, so damn loud you can not stay in the house.
====================================
My standard welcome to the forum message.

Read Study Plan before spending money
Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact.

Please read the IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes and other items in the IP Cam Talk Wiki. (read on a real computer, not a phone). The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) in the wiki also.


Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras if you need good low light cameras.
3) Start with a good variable focus camera, so you test for the correct lens,lighting, camera placement.
4) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
5) Do not use wifi cameras.
6) Do not use cloud storage
7) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
8) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
9) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
10) Do not use reolink, ring, nest, Arlo cameras (they are junk), no cloud cameras
11) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
12) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
13) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
14) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 7ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
15) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
16) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator V3
17) POE list PoE Switch Suggestion List
18) Camera Sensor size, bigger is general better Sensor Size Chart
19) Camera lens size, a bigger number give more range but less field of view. Which Security Camera Lens Size Should I Buy?
20) verify your camera placement, have a friend wearing a hoodie, ball cap and sunglasses looking down approach the house, can you identify them at night ?
21) DO NOT UPGRADE your NVR or camera unless you absolutely have a problem that needs to be fixed and known what you are doing, if you do you will turn it into a brick !!

 

[eggsan]

nice house. You still have plenty of time, but you may ask your Integrator to quote on Hikvision products, since drivers are already available to control Hik's NVR . Recently, C4 was purchased by SnapAV, in which Luma (Hik OEM) is their surveillance brand. The driver (interface) will work with any Hik NVR (OEM as well). Dahua drivers are also available, check with your integration company.

 

[catcamstar]

Nice lot. Finding "best" cover (IP VM calculator) will be your challenge. If you are on good basis with your (cross street) neighbors, you might find it useful to hook up a cam from there to have "coverage" footage.

Good luck building!
CC

 

[mecham56]

If the builder will allow it, do the wiring yourself. Otherwise look for an electrician that is certified for low voltage. Check his references closely.
There are a lot of wire pullers out there, with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and if it can be screwed up, they will.
Have you broke ground yet?

We're very close with the builder so we're able to do just about anything we want. We broke ground a couple weeks ago. We are pouring the floor concrete tomorrow. So, we've got a little bit of time before framing and sheetrock. Is there a way other than just "asking him" to check his certification?

 

[mecham56]

nice house. You still have plenty of time, but you may ask your Integrator to quote on Hikvision products, since drivers are already available to control Hik's NVR . Recently, C4 was purchased by SnapAV, in which Luma (Hik OEM) is their surveillance brand. The driver (interface) will work with any Hik NVR (OEM as well). Dahua drivers are also available, check with your integration company.

I just texted him to ask about Hikivision and Dahua. I think his response will be a good indication whether or not I work with him specifically. haha.

 

[looney2ns]

We're very close with the builder so we're able to do just about anything we want. We broke ground a couple weeks ago. We are pouring the floor concrete tomorrow. So, we've got a little bit of time before framing and sheetrock. Is there a way other than just "asking him" to check his certification?

He needs to show it to you.

 

[catcamstar]

We're very close with the builder so we're able to do just about anything we want. We broke ground a couple weeks ago. We are pouring the floor concrete tomorrow. So, we've got a little bit of time before framing and sheetrock. Is there a way other than just "asking him" to check his certification?

If you need a starters tip: even when "gardening/exterior" design is later in the planning, do forsee TONS of these in the ground:

Put them into each corner of your garden, back and front. If you don't use them, it costs a mere $, however if you need to pull (additional) electricity/cat6, you can still do that later on. Let these tubes terminate into your "technical room". So I hope for you you have forseen enough "outside" holes with the concrete floor being slammed in tomorrow ;-)

 

[eggsan]

as mecham56 noted, is a good idea to add extra tubing, (6+ inches below surface), starting at the distribution panel, ending strategically with a PVC weatherproof box. Extra care with corrugated tubing during the process of pouring the concrete, the extra pressure could damage the corrugated. To avoided, I always specify PVC tubing instead.

 

[mat200]

We're very close with the builder so we're able to do just about anything we want. We broke ground a couple weeks ago. We are pouring the floor concrete tomorrow. So, we've got a little bit of time before framing and sheetrock. Is there a way other than just "asking him" to check his certification?

Excellent @mecham56

I'd run 1-2 communications conduits from the main building to the boat building.
Example 2x 3/4" PVC ... or one larger...

I did not see a data closet.. so you want to make certain you can run all your cat6 appropriately to such a location.

Looks like a 2 story.. so remember.. mount cameras 6-8 feet high in general for better chances to ID suspect.

If you have time, you can mark on the layout where you'd like to put cameras, along with a front/side house view and many people are happy to give you additional suggestions once you have done your first plan for possible placements.

Remember, getting a particular cameras / nvr matters less now compared to getting good runs to locations.


update: very wide parameter, so I'd plan for quite a few cameras - even if you only get a smaller number to start with

 

[mecham56]

Thank you guys for all your information. I had a meeting with a potential installer. He showed me his low-voltage certification too.

I guess my next question is - I feel like I like the UniFi G4 Pro cameras, any reason not to get them? I know they are more expensive, but it looks like the software is pretty similar to Nest, which would be nice for me.

 

[Teken]

Thank you guys for all your information. I had a meeting with a potential installer. He showed me his low-voltage certification too.

I guess my next question is - I feel like I like the UniFi G4 Pro cameras, any reason not to get them? I know they are more expensive, but it looks like the software is pretty similar to Nest, which would be nice for me.

Some things to consider as this will impact your network, storage, and finances.

- Supports only H.264 video compression. That is literally 2000 technology and will cost you in storage space & bandwidth.

- The camera has a -4 to 122’F operating range. Almost every tier 2 camera offers an operational range of -22 to 140’F. Tier 1 hardware meet and exceed this operational range. Heat is the silent killer for most electronics. Extremely cold temps also impact these sophisticated electronics.

- This camera has one of the highest power draws (12.5 watts) when compared to similar units.

- This specific camera is one of the most expensive cameras on the market. When compared to similar hardware which offers more for less.

- ONVIF: Unless something has changed this camera does not support industry standards of ONVIF. You literally are stuck in single vendor hardware solution. Can’t use 3rd party NVR / Cameras.

- IP Rating: Since release this camera has seen dozens of incidence of internal moisture buildup. The IP67 rating must not account for poor QA / design flaws. As the camera obviously in cold climates are fogging up and causing the hardware to fail due to rusting and shorting outs

- Low Light: This Hardware doesn’t specify what colour lux / black & white values are. Even the cheapest 2nd tier camera from Hikvision / Duhua does! Meaning don’t expect to see nice colour video at night with this camera.

- Storage: Almost every hardware maker incorporates edge recording via micro SD card. This camera once again fails to offer this basic (expected) standard feature. Edge recording is imperative to have when redundancy and fail over is required.

The odds a NVR / PC fails is not If but when. The odds of multiple cameras fail to operate and not record via internal storage is less likely when good media is used and solid hardware is installed.

Just some things to consider . . .

 

[mecham56]

Some things to consider as this will impact your network, storage, and finances.

- Supports only H.264 video compression. That is literally 2000 technology and will cost you in storage space & bandwidth.

- The camera has a -4 to 122’F operating range. Almost every tier 2 camera offers an operational range of -22 to 140’F. Tier 1 hardware meet and exceed this operational range. Heat is the silent killer for most electronics. Extremely cold temps also impact these sophisticated electronics.

- This camera has one of the highest power draws (12.5 watts) when compared to similar units.

- This specific camera is one of the most expensive cameras on the market. When compared to similar hardware which offers more for less.

- ONVIF: Unless something has changed this camera does not support industry standards of ONVIF. You literally are stuck in single vendor hardware solution. Can’t use 3rd party NVR / Cameras.

- IP Rating: Since release this camera has seen dozens of incidence of internal moisture buildup. The IP67 rating must not account for poor QA / design flaws. As the camera obviously in cold climates are fogging up and causing the hardware to fail due to rusting and shorting outs

- Low Light: This Hardware doesn’t specify what colour lux / black & white values are. Even the cheapest 2nd tier camera from Hikvision / Duhua does! Meaning don’t expect to see nice colour video at night with this camera.

- Storage: Almost every hardware maker incorporates edge recording via micro SD card. This camera once again fails to offer this basic (expected) standard feature. Edge recording is imperative to have when redundancy and fail over is required.

The odds a NVR / PC fails is not If but when. The odds of multiple cameras fail to operate and not record via internal storage is less likely when good media is used and solid hardware is installed.

Just some things to consider . . .

Just SOME things to consider? I started out loving this camera to realizing it would not be a good fit at all considering all these points. This helps a ton. THANK YOU

 

[Bill52]

Just a friendly tip: Spent as more money as you can to the best high resolution cameras you can afford, and secondary to the nvr etc.

 

[Teken]

Just SOME things to consider? I started out loving this camera to realizing it would not be a good fit at all considering all these points. This helps a ton. THANK YOU

To be fair the daytime video is quiet good on this camera. Then again, even a cheap 3rd tier 1080P camera offers very good images during the day. As you noted early on night time video is important to you along with colour.

So that pretty much narrows the field of hardware selection which doesn’t include the Ubiquiti G4 Pro.

Once you have installed all of the wiring infrastructure in the home just buy one camera to test. Going this route cost you very little in terms of initial outlay of finances.

Once you see the quality of that specific cameras day / night performance you can go all in without any regrets.

If you haven’t thought about all of the wiring please consider 22-4 / 18-2 to be run with the CAT-6 Ethernet. This will allow you to power future cameras, microphone, speaker, IR etc.

Buying a camera that incorporates a microphone even if it’s not Hi-Fi quality also makes sense. As this reduces long term costs and hardware. Having said that you may find having the ability to wire a dedicated microphone allows you flexible placement and better overall sound quality.

Many also use third party IR for spot vs flood to see further and better. Keep in mind any camera that incorporates smart lighting obviously can’t compensate for 3rd party IR which can result in image blow out.

There are some new cameras that incorporate speakers and the ability to record custom sound files. This offers huge advantages to meet your personal needs if used correctly.

Connecting these types of cameras to a higher quality speaker system just opens the world in terms use case and reactive security.

Also plan out dedicated locations for WiFi access points on the exterior. Nothing is worse than trying to watch / listen to streaming content and getting cut off due to spotty coverage.

As others noted running conduit is key along with multiple pull strings in areas, zones, floors, where it’s impossible to do so later.

One thing I wish had been done in my home was multiple outdoor rated 120 VAC
outlets on the property. Having electrical power throughout the property opens the doors and options to future accessories not known or required now.

Given the beautiful layout of your home and property accent lighting is just a given. The added benefit is this will allow almost any camera to see better at night. It will reduce the incidence of ghosting & blurring.

Besides force protection, lighting is one of the cheapest methods to increase curb appeal, awareness & safety, while helping video surveillance at the same time.

When perimeter lighting is deployed on and around the property correctly. You look and feel like a king everyday!

One thing that has advanced in recent years is solar lighting. Going this route obviously saves you in electricity. But opens the doors to flexible mounting placement and use case. If running 120 VAC around the property isn’t in the budget. Solar lighting can help in this area for sure.

Just be cautious and buy a few and test out over a long period before committing to a specific model / brand.

Anyways, do us all a favour and snap some photos when that McMansion is done!!

Some of us have to live vicariously through others!

 

[mecham56]

I'm excited to learn more and test given what you guys have said, YET I'm nervous to show you the results if it's not very good.

If you guys are interested, I'll post what we end up doing!

 

[Teken]

I'm excited to learn more and test given what you guys have said, YET I'm nervous to show you the results if it's not very good.

If you guys are interested, I'll post what we end up doing!

Given this is a clean slate I would encourage you to find balance of curb appeal vs ghetto. I’ve seen too many million dollar homes with ugly pig noes turrets popping out like a pimples.

If there are specific models you like see if they offer surface mounts. It will take planning and more finances to do and cut soffit to install a flush mount kit.

But it provides a lot more curb appeal while offering stealth and video security. Keep in mind there’s just going to be a few cameras that must poke out from the building. Using a combination of dome, turret, and in moderation bullet style.

This will allow you to stay in good health and company with the wife!

A few more words of wisdom from those who have seen it all. I would encourage you to have in writing that all cabling be name brand, solid copper, and certified for in wall use.

No CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) as its not NEC / CEC certified to be installed in walls and also doesn’t have the same current carrying ability. All CAT-6 cable be solid and no less than 23 AWG in diameter.

Contractors will use 24-28 AWG if given the chance and is 20-35% cheaper but will charge you the same! Use CAT-6E shielded cable when and where needed and if you can splurge do the entire video network this way.

You’ll never have to worry about RFI / EMI using this cable. Also, insure any video cable is not allowed to cross 120 / 240 VAC lines. If you have no choice just don’t let it run in parallel to the same.

We normally run yellow Ethernet cable to identify it from any other network cabling.

Wiring Schema:

Besides running multiple runs insure your contractor marks all cables on both ends in marker and tape:



In the military and prepping the life motto is two is one - one is none. If the wire is hand written with a number coupled with marking tape. You’ll never have to worry what that wire connects to!

When cable is being pulled insure quadrants are grouped in like bundles and combed. This makes identifying the cable and future maintenance easier on everyone.

A nice service loop on each end must be present in case the wire is damaged or from placement moves.

Other things to really consider is dedicated and isolated power for this network equipment along with surge protection and UPS power.

Grounding is something very few people ever consider. But, this is the only thing that will reduce the incidence of electrical damage.

If you haven’t broken ground and can talk to the builder ask them to install a uFer grounding system. This is the best grounding system money can buy.

Keeping in mind this in no way circumvents the need for a layered SPD system in the home.

This starts at the service entrance meter (SPD Type 1), then at the service panel (SPD Type 2), and point of use at the outlets (SPD Type 3). If you’re totally dead serious like me (SPD Type 4) at the equipment level.

Lastly, even with all the best grounding and surge protection in use. This does not protect you from voltage sag / lull. More equipment is damaged per year due to a brown out. Thus, having mission critical hardware on a proven AVR enabled UPS is paramount to boost vs trim a drop in line voltage.

Regardless, I would love to see what this home looks like when done!