Camera recs, BI questions, critique my plan please! New but have read much.

[I108]

Hey,

tl;dr: Dahua smart AI cam stuff work with BIue Iris? Any reason to get their NVR? Should I get fancy cams or no? And then 4k vs lower or both!

New guy here! I have read quite a bit and plan to post an intro too.

• I have IT and tech/medical/science background but new to cams.
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• I am doing conduit on my home for ethernet/IP cams/phone signal booster, and will have PoE IP cam runs and Ubiquti 24 port PoE pro and UDM Pro, that is my thinking.
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• I have a large shop home on many acres (hence why conduit needed, no attic or crawlspace!) and want to cover front, back, sides, yard, front of house looking far down driveway, and since it's quite far away and around curves, use a dakota alert system by my gate for now.
• I would like to be able to know when someone is entering my yard/driveway, perhaps that is tripwire or zone based, but human based could be useful too (though won't catch bears, mountain lions, moose, etc.)
• High resolution is nice, I do close my gate at night but reading license plates that come in the driveway is a plus as well.
• 
  
• Getting some help with this and they use Dahua cams exclusively and offer a warranty, great. He recommended the 4K starlight 2.8mm.
• 
  
• I read here about the Smart Motion Detection and also WizMind and WizSense and not sure if BlueIris can match this without cams, maybe yes with good CPU and plugins I read.
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• Contractor said without an AI NVR from Dahua I will be fairly underwhelmed with the WizMind/Sense cameras and lack a clean central way to search for the SMD criteria when looking at past footage. He advised against buying fancy cams without the NVR.
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• He was thinking of 4k cams complemented with focus shots of 4/5mp cams for areas of interest. Asked me if I had model #s, I am looking at Dahuas site.
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• I need at least 5 cameras at the moment, I also have a pole in the yard that could use a camera (some old ones on it but not sure if good yet).

So my questions:

1. Is he right? or does Blue Iris support the advanced features of WizMind/Sense (and SMD, is this different altogether?) and provide a clean central way to use them? I read here that it DOES support Dahua features, but can't find a clear answer on this.
2. Either way, any recommendations? I am putting in drops now so do not mind putting in extras if required.

I am wanting to use my own PC (a fairly recent laptop for now, external USB 3 drives, I have extra towers or a SFF soon to use) and Blue Iris based on this forums suggestions, and Dahua cams. There are some nice WizMind cams that look all fancy but may cost a ton, I do want the best of all worlds but should keep it to 500 a camera or less even with that, ideally less. Or I could just go with the non smart cams if that is unnecessary, I would think Blue Iris could do anything a camera could and better, but some threads say the camera AI is far superior and less false positives and my CPU will just die attempting it even on 5 cams!

I also see a 12 MP 360 cam, useful up on a big pole up top above the shed? (My primary internet is on there until I get Starlink). I know lower resolution is said to be better for low light and motion, so am open to multiple cams, I just need some guidance really, I am months behind on this project, one contractor delayed a few times or had issues, and backed out for various reasons, these new folks seem on it and ready to go with me.

Thanks so much for any and all help.

 

[wittaj]

Welcome...you have a bad contractor giving you bad advice LOL...

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Most 4k are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP...this is even more critical with a PTZ that will be PTZing across a wide range of differing light conditions at night. 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

Next you need to worry about getting the right camera for the right location.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them. And how much additional light is needed at night (when it matters most).

Take a look at this chart - to identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that is popular, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 2.8mm fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police that got my neighbors all there stolen stuff back. Reolinks are even worse at night - he tried those first and sent back to get Arlos....and a year later he is regretting that choice too.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4k Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results - fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the 5442 camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor works as well.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

Main keys are you can't locate the camera too high (not on the 2nd story or above 7 feet high unless it is for overview and not Identification purposes) or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who. Also, do not chase marketing phrases like ColorVu and Full Color and the like - all cameras need light - simple physics...

Consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is a stripped down computer after all....and isn't true plug-n-play like people believe. You still have to dial the cameras into your setting. Once you do that, might as well go with something that has the best chance of working with many different camera brands. And I have found Blue Iris to be more robust and easier than an NVR. As always, YMMV...

When I was looking at NVRs, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal, and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR. You don't need to buy components and build one.

Many of these refurbished computers are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that. A member here just last week found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. Blue Iris has a demo, so get a camera and try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

NVRs from the box units like a Amcrest and Lorex cap out incoming bandwidth (which impacts the resolution and FPS of the cameras). The Lorex and Amcrest NVR maxes out at 80Mbps and truly only one or a couple cameras that will display 4K. My neighbors was limited to that and he is all upset it isn't 4K for all eight channels and he was capped out at 4096 bitrate on each camera so it was a pixelated mess.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

I encourage you reach out to Andy @EMPIRETECANDY as he has an Amazon site to get your gear.

The best advice we give is purchase one varifocal camera and test it at each location you want to install a camera and confirm the lens you need and do not install higher than 7-8 feet unless it is for an overview camera - otherwise you get top of heads and hoodies.

Regarding a camera for plate reading (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night:



With Blue Iris, you can pull the AI/Wizmind from the camera into Blue Iris flawlessly. I am doing so and so are many member here. AI and SMD are too different things. You would want to use the AI. AI will identify and trigger based on human or vehicle, while SMD will trigger for any motion other than leaves and cloud cover.

Now keep in mind a game changer is the Blue Iris just added DeepStack AI integration this past week that will continue to get better. For the moment I prefer the AI from the camera to trigger Blue Iris. But with Deepstack you could have it alert you and identify bear and what not. The Camera AI is limited to people and vehicles.

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only. I am currently...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[SouthernYankee]

For my house: (Yes it is a little over the top).
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1) the front door needs three cameras, one doorbell camera pointing out, one pointing at the package drop area, one pointing back to the front door from the overhang
2) the garage door entrance two cameras pointing out mounted no higher than the top of the garage door, on each side of the door for car door checkers, I use 6mm cameras.
3) the inside of the garage need two cameras one point at the garage door and one point at the house entrance
4) each entrance to the house must be covered by a camera.
5) each camera must be covered by another camera, If i can destroy a camera it must be covered, recorded by another camera.
6) in my house all public areas inside are covered, kitchen, living room, dining room, halls, game room, den
7) all outside doors are covered by a camera inside, pointing out.

============================================
Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
Doing it right the first time will save you money.
Test do not guess

Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact. Cameras are NOT a deterrent.

Please read the IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes and other items in the IP Cam Talk Wiki. (read on a real computer, not a phone). The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) in the wiki also.

==============================================
Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras if you need good low light cameras.
3) Start with one good variable focus camera, so you test for the correct lens,lighting, camera placement.
4) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
5) Do not use wifi cameras.
6) Do not use cloud storage
7) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
8) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
9) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
10) Do not use reolink, ring, nest, Arlo, Vivint cameras (they are junk), no cloud cameras
11) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
12) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
13) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
14) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 7ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
15) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
16) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator V3
17) POE list PoE Switch Suggestion List
18) Camera Sensor size, bigger is general better Sensor Size Chart
19) Camera lens size, a bigger number give more range but less field of view. Which Security Camera Lens Size Should I Buy?
20) verify your camera placement, have a friend wearing a hoodie, ball cap and sunglasses looking down approach the house, can you identify them at night ?
21) DO NOT UPGRADE your NVR or camera unless you absolutely have a problem that needs to be fixed and known what you are doing, if you do you will turn it into a brick !!

 

[I108]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Wow definitely a lot to think about here.

Seems like I need 4 cameras in every zone lol.

I'm only doing outside. and no I don't have an alarm system but I really don't want something loud going off in my ears I have damage. Also I stay up later than everyone and might go outside.

IPC-HFW8841X-E3-LB is one high-end camera I was looking at. looks like it includes an 8 megapixel and 2 megapixel camera in one which could solve the night issue although I believe I have to pick either 2.8 or 6 mm. Under that same series they have a bullet camera that could work for the one place I might need to zoom in further (alternatively the six mm version might be enough there.) Of course I know that camera is likely not cheap but it is two cameras really.

I also thought of going with multiple of lesser cameras especially now that blue iris added some of the AI features itself.

I did already pick out some spots on a diagram.

I guess overview is the most important but it would be nice to have some good detail of somebody in yard or approaching house.

I'm pretty rural.

 

[wittaj]

Stick with the cameras we mentioned above. This is an 8MP on a 1/1.8" sensor, so it will need double the light of the 4MP 5442 series cameras that use the same sensor. Since you are rural, you need low light performance cameras.

 

[I108]

Stick with the cameras we mentioned above. This is an 8MP on a 1/1.8" sensor, so it will need double the light of the 4MP 5442 series cameras that use the same sensor. Since you are rural, you need low light performance cameras.

Thank both of you for the replies. I have seen some of your advice in other threads.

Yeah, thinking about the varifocal 4MP, seems more important to dial in that viewing area than the 4k/2mp combo cam and much cheaper. Still, it seems like one would want overview cam in both resolutions and zoomed in cam in both resolutions, (a high and low). Isn't resolution a key factor in PPF and image clarity and identification? Wish they made a camera that had it all, 2 sensors, one for day one for night (or high and low res) and varifocal ability as well (or maybe keep one lens for overview and another zoomed in for focus)! Back to the start of this paragraph though, if you want to see everything, you need overview, then to determine where you want to see close enough to ID. Makes it seem like you just want more OF zoomed in cams instead of an overview cam, or both.

 

[wittaj]

Right now the two lens cameras are not really intended for the home setting - more industrial, business, airport, etc. Doesn't mean you cannot use one, but you will pay more for that one camera than you would two cameras. They do make a two lens camera that has an overview and another zoomed in and/or PTZ, but again they are a lot more than two of the 5442 series cameras. For $1,400 you can get this bad boy:

Amazon.com : Loryta SDT5X405-4F-WA Dual 4MP Starlight Hunter AI Camera PTZ System, Starlight Technology, Support Hi-PoE English Version

Amazon.com : Loryta SDT5X405-4F-WA Dual 4MP Starlight Hunter AI Camera PTZ System, Starlight Technology, Support Hi-PoE English Version

www.amazon.com

An overview cam is intended to give you a wide angle, big picture view. It is not used for identification purposes (because a wide angle lens like a 2.8mm will not be able to IDENTIFY someone at 50 feet out), but it lets you observe something happened. Or you use it as a spotter cam for a PTZ camera. For example, a 2.8MM lens for an overview cam placed on a 2nd story soffit will not be able to IDENTIFY anything because it would be more than 10 feet away just vertically, much less horizontally, so a 2MP would need less light and thus would be able to see further out that something happened than a 4K camera on the same sensor. And many 4K cameras are placed on the same sensor as a 2MP camera in an effort to save costs...and that savings results in poor night performance. But this overview cam is usually left in color, so you can get clothing or car color to go along with an optically zoomed in camera that may be running B/W.

Resolution is a part of the PPF, but if the sensor isn't getting enough light, the rated PPF and clarity is useless. Like I mentioned, my neighbor thought he was the king of the neighborhood with his 4k cameras. We had a doorchecker come through here and even though the perp was less than 10 feet from his cameras, his images and videos were useless. He could tell the police what time his car doors were checked and that it looked like Casper the ghost. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my cars, but my several year old 2MP optically zoomed to the sidewalk 80 feet away got all my neighbors their stuff back.

An analogy to try to understand why cameras need so much more light - let's look at a 4MP camera and this 4MP needs at least twice the amount of light as a 2MP at night for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 4MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has double the holes, but also double the "screen material" than the 2MP. A 4K camera would need 4 times the light of a 2MP or double the light of a 4MP for the same sensor. Kind of hard to explain, but trying to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out is a little darker because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has double the holes (now it represents 4MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is more screen material. At night time, look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material? Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.

Many here are of the mindset to go with varifocals so that you can dial them in optically to the area you are trying to provide coverage for. Then in a couple years when you decide to upgrade a camera location, you can move the old varifocal to a now new camera location.

Overview cameras do serve a purpose and work really well as spotter cams for a PTZ. The mistake too many people think is they can put a 2.8mm camera on each corner of their house and have full coverage...and then an event happens and they find out that they cannot provide anything useful to the police to IDENTIFY the perp.

 

[I108]

What about the TPC-DF1241?

It's its 4 megapixel but I don't see much information about its night vision/IR/warmlight etc, oh I found it, 30m range IR.

Also also sensor size 1/2.7 CMOS instead of 1/1.8 which is a bit of a letdown. Personally I wouldn't mind some higher resolution but I get that it's a drawback.


The thermal could come in real handy since I am in the middle of the woods and it should be dark all around so anything that lights up is an animal or a human.

Looks like there are a few focal variants.

 

[sebastiantombs]

If you're out in the woods, a dark area, don't even bother with a 4MP that isn't a 1/1.8" sensor or larger. It'll be the pits at night unless you add a lot of additional IR illuminators. Light and sensor size are the two things that are critical, resolution is secondary. IR cameras are good, too, but kind of pricey.

 

[I108]

If you're out in the woods, a dark area, don't even bother with a 4MP that isn't a 1/1.8" sensor of larger. It'll be the pits at night unless you add a lot of additional IR illuminators. Light and sensor size are the two things that are critical, resolution is secondary. IR cameras are good, too, but kind of pricey.

Yeah I thought I found what I wanted..
Why would they skimp on the sensor..
Makes no sense on a camera for dark.

 

[I108]

In fact I don't get why they don't just use that large sensor on everything, how much more could it really cost, why are so many models not using it? I wish they did it would make my choice much easier.

So yes I can just get the 4 MP 1/1.8 Starlight and call it good.
Or the eureka thermal hybrid but smaller sensor. I do have a porch light on both ends of house but that's it. I might also add lighting around here.

Or that 4x8MP panoramic has 1/1.8 but it's 4k... 180 degrees though I don't know why they need for cameras when each camera does about 90 degrees at 2.8mm.. must be a lot of overlap. probably expensive but I can probably avoid blind-spot and less cameras needed to be perfect.

I guess I know the consensus here, get the 4/1.18 or get multiple cameras.. still if I wanted to see a bear or a human maybe that thermal and smaller sensor is enough with some lighting and I get the thermal... It remind me of this to me but how drastic is the difference between sensor size...?

 

[wittaj]

Like everything, they try to cater to a variety of budgets....and most consumers are fascinated with MP more so than they are picture quality, so as long as Rings and Arlos and what not are sold in large quantities and people just accept the inferior night images, we will continue to see higher MP on smaller sensors to save costs.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Another problem that enters into the sensor arena, especially now, is the actual availability of chips and sensors. It's not only the sensor, a CPU of sorts, is needed to do the processing in the camera to convert from raw video into an IP stream, not to mention all the other little things like date/time overlays, brightness, contrast and so on as well as any AI features these cameras have. Given that even Ford, GM and other major vehicle manufacturers are shutting down production lines due to chip shortages and prices already going up on IP cameras, chips and sensor shortages become significant factors.