Camera Selection - Complete Newbie trying to do the right thing!

craigscott

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Hi All,

I have reading the forum for a while and have tried to take in as much information as possible - the things I have really taken away from it are:

  • Coverage, if you don't have it - what's the point!
  • Ignore MP :)
  • Work out what you actually need from your camera and the area you need to cover. What is the purpose!

What all that said, I'm still completely lost. I am based in the UK so it would seem some of my camera selection is limited (?) - I also like everyone, have a budget!

The main reason for looking for a new CCTV system is because I'm moving house, currently I use an Arlo system and have quickly realised that whilst they look good on paper, in reality when it counts the quality isnt where I want it to be.

With the new house I've worked out that 6 cameras will give me what I feel is complete coverage, two on the corners looking across the house (it has a small porch area which I need to deal with separately as I am not sure how to run a cable there until I'm actually in), one on the driveway and then two in the back garden, again on the corners looking across the house. All mounted at the right height so im not looking at peoples heads!

In terms of distances I need to identify people, the ones on the front of the house really only needs to be about 4-5m - The house is directly onto a quiet road and path, so there is no big expanse to cover. The driveway is probably one of the most important places I think? Its about 8m long and two car widths wide, ideally I would like good coverage to identify someone at that distance - that camera will also overlook a side door which is only about 2m away.

The rear garden I think I only want to mainly cover the entrances to the property, so again it would be about 3-4m maximum I would want to be able to identify someone.

Budget wise, I would be looking at around £100 per camera, I know that is not a lot in the modern world but the budget is what it is, I may be able to stretch to £125 and equally I accept that not all the cameras need to be the same! maybe I need to spend £200 on the driveway and less on the rest? I am not sure!

Night performance is important to me and to be able to identify people around my property at the distances above would be great.

Planning to use BlueIris so I can integrate it into the rest of my home automation (HomeAssistant and Nodered etc) - maybe even using Deepstack. Although up for anything that achieves the goal above primarily (as that's what is most important)

I have been recomended to look at Annke cameras, but then ive realised that the famous video on YouTube may not be what its cracked up to be! especially now with my new found knowledge that 4k may not be what im after!

So with all that, can anyone help steer me in the right direction in terms of where I should start, any recommendations on models that may fit the requirements and budget?

I feel I have read lots, but given myself more questions than answers :)

Thanks in advance!

Craig
 

sebastiantombs

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:welcome:

No one can really tell you what will work for you. Every situation, from camera to camera, is slightly different. Your best bet is to buy one varifocal camera and test, extensively, each proposed location. As you note, what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily mean it will work out well.

Use a test rig of some sort, a two meter stick of wood in a bucket full of sand or stones or clamped to a step ladder, to test each location. Have someone walk by playing a bad guy with a hoodie or ball cap on. See if you can really identify them from the video and do that both during the day and at night. The advantage of the varifcocal is that it will allow you to vary the focal length and get a good approximation of what lens is needed for each location for the permanent installation. You can short cut the lens length part if you use all varifocal cameras. My take, from what you said, is the 3.6 or 6mm would probably work out.

The current go to camera is the Dahua 5442 series, They are 4MP on a 1-1/8" sensor and, with enough ambient light, can maintain color 247. There are alternatives that are less expensive as well but the 5442 series is quite good. Hikvision makes a similar line of cameras but I am not sure of their model numbers.

Andy, EmpireTechAndy, has a thread in the vendor section and is very reliable from the experiences of many, many, users of this board. He stands behind his prodcuts and is very "creative" with shipping and can easily get products to anywhere in the world. You can contact him by email ad get a quote, Mention that you are an IPCT member.

5442 Reviews

Review - Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ Turret

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Turret, Full Color, Starlight+)

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Bullet Network Camera

2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

3241T-ZAS Review

Less expensive models -

Email
Andy Wang kingsecurity2014@163.com
 
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You have the makings of a plan. That is good. As you stated, 4K cams, at your budget, would be poor at night. Remember that night performance is mostly controlled by how much light gets to each pixel. So for a given sensor size, the more pixels the less light. Now you can get a 4K cam on a big sensor, but not in your budget. Maybe 20x your budget.

The only way to know how a cam will perform in a specific location is to test it. You do not need to buy all of the cams at one time. Buy one good varifocal cam, like the Dahua 5442 (4MP on a 1/1.8" sensor), put it on a test rig as described in the Cliff Notes, and see what you get in various locations. Use this cam to learn how to adjust the exposure settings to get the best possible video. Test it in the day and at night. Make sure to have someone walk it to see how it does. Once you see how these cams perform, you can make informed decisions about other purchases.

Do not run wires or mount cams until they have been tested at the location.
 

wittaj

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It is easy to see how so many people go to the local box store and get fascinated with the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" like a Reolink or Arlo or Lorex or NightOwl can provide and chase megapixels. Some of us hate to admit that is how we started LOL. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess....and it sounds like you have experienced that, among other issues...

It is simple LOL - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy into the 4K hype. Soon we will hopefully see some larger sensors that can truly carry an 8MP on it, but we are not quite there yet.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them. And how much additional light is needed at night (when it matters most) for a 4k camera. There currently isn't an economical 8MP/sensor combination at the moment that any would recommend.

Take a look at this chart - to identify someone with the 2.8mm lens popular in the kits, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera.

1604638118196.png



My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 box-kit cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police that got my neighbors all there stolen stuff back. Reolinks are even worse at night - he tried those first and sent back to get Arlos....and a year later he is regretting that choice too.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4k Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results - fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the 5442 camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor works as well.
  • 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
  • 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
  • 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
  • 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.
You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

Main keys are you can't locate the camera too high or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who. Also, do not chase marketing phrases like ColorVu and Full Color and the like - all cameras need light - simple physics...

The best advice we give is purchase one varifocal camera and test it at each location you want to install a camera and confirm the lens you need.
 

mat200

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Hi All,

I have reading the forum for a while and have tried to take in as much information as possible - the things I have really taken away from it are:

  • Coverage, if you don't have it - what's the point!
  • Ignore MP :)
  • Work out what you actually need from your camera and the area you need to cover. What is the purpose!
,,

Thanks in advance!

Craig
Welcome @craigscott

Wittaj stated it well:
The best advice we give is purchase one varifocal camera and test it at each location you want to install a camera and confirm the lens you need.

If you buy a decent 1st camera, you can use it in your final setup - even if you decide to go with more affordable cameras for some of the positions.

The Annke brand IP PoE cameras typically are more affordable / older model Hikvision cameras. Always double check with the Annke / Sannce brand as they also sell some real garbage ( for example garbage designed to defraud people which they call xPoE, ePoE - both which are not PoE.. or NPoE .. )
 

SouthernYankee

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My standard welcome to the forum message.

Read Study Plan before spending money
Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact. Cameras are NOT a deterrent.

Please read the IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes and other items in the IP Cam Talk Wiki. (read on a real computer, not a phone). The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) in the wiki also.


Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras if you need good low light cameras.
3) Start with a good variable focus camera, so you test for the correct lens,lighting, camera placement.
4) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
5) Do not use wifi cameras.
6) Do not use cloud storage
7) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
8) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
9) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
10) Do not use reolink, ring, nest, Arlo, Vivint cameras (they are junk), no cloud cameras
11) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
12) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
13) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
14) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 7ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
15) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
16) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator V3
17) POE list PoE Switch Suggestion List
18) Camera Sensor size, bigger is general better Sensor Size Chart
19) Camera lens size, a bigger number give more range but less field of view. Which Security Camera Lens Size Should I Buy?
20) verify your camera placement, have a friend wearing a hoodie, ball cap and sunglasses looking down approach the house, can you identify them at night ?
21) DO NOT UPGRADE your NVR or camera unless you absolutely have a problem that needs to be fixed and known what you are doing, if you do you will turn it into a brick !!

Cameras to look at
IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED . Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+) - 4MP starlight
.................... Dahua IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED review
IPC-T5442TM-AS ..... Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ - 4MP starlight+
IPC-HDW5442t-ZE .... Dahua IPC-HDW5442T-ZE 4MP Varifocal Turret - Night Perfomance testing -- variable focus 2.7 mm-12mm 4 MP Starlight
IPC-B5442E-ZE ...... Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+ -- variable 2.7mm-12mm bullet
IPC-B5442E-Z4E .... bullet 8mm-32mm variable focus zoom 4MP
IPC-HFW7442H-Z ..... Review - Dahua IPC-HFW7442H-Z 4MP Ultra AI Varifocal Bullet Camera -- 4 MP variable focus AI

Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
Doing it right the first time will save you money.
Test do not guess
 

craigscott

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Sorry for the delay reply, an impending house move has meant I wouldn't be on here as much as I would have liked!

That is so much information and all good, I cannot thank you all enough.

After reading through (nearly) all of the information I think I will go ahead and purchase one of the 5442 Varifcal cameras and then start mapping out where I need cameras on my property and what focal length I need.

Most people here seem to really rate the Dahua (and the EmpireTech versions) - just a quick Q really on that subject

  • Are the EmpireTech versions identical? I noticed some other variants of cameras seem to have removed features and/or downgraded some of the specification
  • Does anyone rate Hikvision, Its not that I want to go to their cameras, ill look for recommendations above all else, I just see their name branded round quite a bit here in the UK and so was more wondering :)

Thank you everyone so much, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all your help so far! No doubt ill have more questions that come out of me reading more!

Thanks,

Craig
 

sebastiantombs

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The EmpireTech versions are International OEM versions and have all the features of Dahua labeled cameras. In fact, occasionally Andy gets firmware with improved or other features that regular Dahua cameras don't get. That's not to say that kind of firmware won't work on a Dahua labeled camera.

Hikvision is also an very good choice, it's just that there is no dealer, with the support that Andy provides for Dahua, available. Andy can get Hikvision cameras as well and there is a whole Hikvision thread area you can have a look at.
 

craigscott

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Fantastic, thank you - that makes a whole lot of sense!

I am also still working out whether it actually matters with Turret vs Bullet, from what I have read, Bullet seems to be the go to if you don't mind the visual as it attracts less spiders etc!

Is there anything other than aesthetics that I need to watch out for? I presume when it comes to mounting, you can virtually do the same with them all, or for Turrets do you need to have a bracket that sticks out from the wall? rather than mounting them directly?
 

sebastiantombs

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A turret has, historically, been less prone to bugs and spiders due to the IR lights being further from the lens rather than in a ring around the lens as was common in bullets. The newer versions of bullets now have the IR lights more separated and are less prone to bugs/sipder webs.

Turrets and bullets can be mounted in any position that is needed, vertical, horizontal and anywhere in between.
 

craigscott

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Thank you!

I may need to ask this in the BlueIris category, however when the cameras has AI (in this case I'm looking at the DH-IPC-HFW5442E-ZE)

it has various pretty cool features like Object Abandoned/Missing, tripwires etc.

I presume they are only really used when either recoding to Dahua (or similar) NVR or SD Card? Or will some of it pass through to BlueIris.

That may be an absolutely awful question, sorry! I have just seen people recommend that you go for a camera with AI to remove some processing from BlueIris, I'm just not sure how that works in reality and technically.

Maybe one for another thread in the right category :)
 

sebastiantombs

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The camera sends an ONVIF signal that BI can use to trigger the camera. Make sure in the video configuration tab of the camera that you have check "get ONVIF trigger events" and it will work fine.

I use both camera generated alerts as well as BI alerts. What I normally do is "clone" the camera so I have two copies of the same camera. Then one is used for BI motion detection and one is used for camera generated triggers. It can be very handy on bright, windy days as an example since I can disable the BI motion detection camera and still have the camera generate alerts.
 
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I posted in BlueIris as I though that may be the best place to not take this thread off topic :)
This is your thread. Do with it what you want. You cannot go 'off topic' in your own thread.

@sebastiantombs has given you really good answers here.

To elaborate a little on the Dahua v Hik question, Hik makes very good cams and there are many here that prefer them. You can't really go wrong with either brand as long as you pick a specific cam for technical reasons. Like piking a good, large sensor rather than large MP. Paying attention to the sensor/MP combination to get maximum light per pixel in your price range.

I chose Dahua due to the most helpful members here, ones that posted helpful information the most, were using Dahua. The other reason was that the cams could be had for reasonable prices by ordering from @EMPIRETECANDY and there was not the same representation for the Hik brand here.
 
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