Cheap system options

[Pernod]

Hi guys,

I'm new. I've spent the last 2 weeks reading and reading across the forum to learn what I can before starting a new home system. The more I learn, the harder the trade offs become.

Realistically we are after a system as a deterrent. Sure I want the images to be useful should anything ever happen, but we actually live in a really safe place in a really safe country (New Zealand) so it's mainly about making us less attractive to burglars than any other house on the street. Given this, I don't really want to invest much more than 300USD. For that I need 4 cameras and a way to record.

Now I'm off two minds... and at the point I need some guidance (as my wife is sick of me talking camera gibberish to her)

• A cheap plug/play system would probably do the job. But I can't find any good reviews of whcih would be the best cheapie setup to go for. Something along these lines ticks the 'cheap' requirement, but I suspect will come with major trade offs...
• Alternatively, options like a Chinese Dahua 4433 with hacked firmware may work in the budget (combined Blue Iris/ZOneminder on an old PC). I suspect these will give much better images, but the lack of software support (especially given the Dahua 2017 software backdoor) makes me very wary of these.

Yes, I know a more expensive Starlight Dahua or Hikvision are the 'right' options, but I'm looking for a price category a total step down from these (otherwise 2 decent cameras would blow my whole budget).

So I suppose the question is, what would up guys go for at the cheap end for a whole new setup?


Other important info:
* I'm a geek and happy to tinker to get things working. The house runs on windows/linux/android (but not mac/iphone)
* I'll be ordering from Aliexpress/China as NZ has very limited options.
* Happy to do all the installation myself (obviously)
* PoE is my preference.
* Nice to haves that will influence the decision; SD cards in camera, ability to FTP motion detections. Extra points if I can find a way to trigger scripts on alerts (to set of other deterrents).
* In general the cameras would ideally have a 60-70deg FoV (or more), and give usable results at 10 meters (30ft) from the subject as a maximum viewing distance


Thanks in advance for humoring the n00b.

 

[giomania]

Sounds like you haven’t seen the cliff notes : IPCamTalk Cliff Notes 2018-02.docx




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[Pernod]

Sounds like you haven’t seen the cliff notes

Thanks for that, I've read them twice after I found them in another newbie thread. THey were fantastic for building a base understanding, however I actually didn't find they helped much for making the trade offs on a really cheap system as the lowest price camera in there is around the $150 price point. They work on the assumption it's worth paying for the better quality cameras, but I simply don't have the budget. I've already decided 4 cameras, albeit lower quality, will be the better option as a deterrent for the budget I have available.

I can't work out how to balance the known, but significant, software risks offs of a chinese Dahua (or clone) vs going a cheaper camera. At the very cheap end there looks to be significant trade offs, including whether I'm better with an average sensor (and software risks) or a cheap sensor but with more IR support.

I was sort of hoping people might have an opinion on what they would buy if it was their money and they had a hard 300-400 limit.

 

[giomania]

I see your dilemma, and you make a valid point about the prices of the outdoor cameras in the cliff notes. At least you will be making an informed choice!


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[Pernod]

Re

I see your dilemma, and you make a valid point about the prices of the outdoor cameras in the cliff notes. At least you will be making an informed choice!

Reading the notes, my actual plan is to get started with 'something in budget' that gives enough coverage, then down the line I'll upgrade 1 camera in particular which covers the only ground level access point to the property.

One other point of note, our house actually has pretty good automatic security lighting on all the main access ways, so I'm hoping that would make up for a weaker camera choice.

All in all, I'm leaning towards a cheap camera option, but with limited info on them and lots of choices it's a totally uninformed decision on which to go for currently.

 

[giomania]

Did you see the thread I linked in the cliff notes about the Chinese cameras? There was a great discussion in there.


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[Pernod]

Did you see the thread I linked in the cliff notes about the Chinese cameras? There was a great discussion in there.

I'd read it, but early on and it didn't make much sense. Just re-read it and it's an interesting discussion. Most of the Chinese trade offs don't worry me.

One that is worrying me is that there is very little info on the Dahua 4433 model (which currently the easiest to get) other than one set of sample images which have poor focus. Am I right in assume these are relatively new and relatively untested?

 

[giomania]

Not sure about that; I am relatively new at this, but maybe some more seasoned members will chime in.


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[c hris527]

I'd read it, but early on and it didn't make much sense. Just re-read it and it's an interesting discussion. Most of the Chinese trade offs don't worry me.

One that is worrying me is that there is very little info on the Dahua 4433 model (which currently the easiest to get) other than one set of sample images which have poor focus. Am I right in assume these are relatively new and relatively untested?

I would say this about your reasoning in trade offs, If you get Chinese region cameras and you wake up one morning and they are disabled by the latest round of exploits and you can not upgrade your firmware because you bought Cameras with HACKED firmware and you are not savvy enough to fix them yourself by way of back door, then we told you so. BTW its happening EVERY Day here. Spend a little more(and it will not be much) and get The International Models by way of Andy. I chimed in

 

[Pernod]

Spend a little more(and it will not be much)

International versions are over 100usd and my budget is around 300...

So are you suggesting the option of getting only 2 good cameras for my budget rather than 4 cheaper ones?

Given my priority is deterrent, if you are suggestinng you wouldnt go for cheap dahua options, then I'd have thought 4 cheap generics would still be a better option, or am I missing something?

 

[c hris527]

A Little review I did on one of the Chinese cams I bought a year and a half ago, read the whole thing. Its pretty use less to me at Night.

Dahua Bullet (IPC-HFW4431R-Z) First Thoughts

 

[tigerwillow1]

Everybody's situation is different and what's best in one situation might not be best in another. I have 2 HFW4431R-Zs, and they are not useless to me at night. I also have a HFW5231E-Z international starlight. Yes, it's better at night, no contest. The 4431R-Z is just as good during the day, also no contest. I have 10 cameras total, giving me excellent day coverage on all, and "not the best but a lot better than nothing" night coverage on 9 of them. The same-cost alternative would have been 5 cameras with a better night image, and 5 with no image at all.

 

[mat200]

International versions are over 100usd and my budget is around 300...

So are you suggesting the option of getting only 2 good cameras for my budget rather than 4 cheaper ones?

Given my priority is deterrent, if you are suggestinng you wouldnt go for cheap dahua options, then I'd have thought 4 cheap generics would still be a better option, or am I missing something?

HI Pernod,

Deterrence value of cameras: Only a % of incidents will be deterred. Plan to back up with the ability to ID suspects. Seen plenty of poor quality video from clearly installed cameras where none of the suspects appeared to be deterred. This is also from personal experience...

 

[c hris527]

International versions are over 100usd and my budget is around 300...

So are you suggesting the option of getting only 2 good cameras for my budget rather than 4 cheaper ones?

Given my priority is deterrent, if you are suggestinng you wouldnt go for cheap dahua options, then I'd have thought 4 cheap generics would still be a better option, or am I missing something?

You have read the Good and the bad here, now you are informed, do what you want.

 

[Pernod]

Thank guys.

I'm new here, so I appreciate all the help. I do feel like I'm missing something fundamental somewhere here though as this thread seems to have deteriorated to whether i should buy a hacked Dahua or an international one - this really isn't the question I'm trying to ask. Being new I don't want to offend anyone, but I think people are missing that I have a very limited budget constraint.

Any new set up is going to be a trade of on 1) number of cameras, 2) quality of cameras and 3) cost.

• Cost is pretty fixed for me at 300-400 USD.
• For my house, 6 cameras would be idea, 4 covers key areas, and 2 would only cover the two drive ways.

Based on that I'm simply asking for what recommendations you guys would do.

• One option is cheap generic cameras - I can't see much info on the forum about the options there? Does anyone have experience?
• Another is go for 2 cameras of better quality/reliability/support.
• Another is a hybrid, but it comes with the software risks of a chinese hacked camera.
• There might be other options I haven't thought of?

All I'm trying to ask is what would you, personally, do if you had a very limited fixed budget?

 

[mat200]

Thank guys.

I'm new here, so I appreciate all the help. I do feel like I'm missing something fundamental somewhere here though as this thread seems to have deteriorated to whether i should buy a hacked Dahua or an international one - this really isn't the question I'm trying to ask. Being new I don't want to offend anyone, but I think people are missing that I have a very limited budget constraint.

Any new set up is going to be a trade of on 1) number of cameras, 2) quality of cameras and 3) cost.

• Cost is pretty fixed for me at 300-400 USD.
• For my house, 6 cameras would be idea, 4 covers key areas, and 2 would only cover the two drive ways.

Based on that I'm simply asking for what recommendations you guys would do.

• One option is cheap generic cameras - I can't see much info on the forum about the options there? Does anyone have experience?
• Another is go for 2 cameras of better quality/reliability/support.
• Another is a hybrid, but it comes with the software risks of a chinese hacked camera.
• There might be other options I haven't thought of?

All I'm trying to ask is what would you, personally, do if you had a very limited fixed budget?

Hi Pernod,

Completely appreciate the budget issues and concerns.

In the USA we have some very good deals during the "Black Friday - Cyber Monday / Cyber week" period where one can find some decent IP PoE kits which are rebranded Hikvision or Dahua OEM products.

Also, we have a warehouse club called Costco which sometimes has some nice deals on IP PoE kits ( I have noticed 2 brands Lorex and Q-see which are rebranded Dahua OEM )

Naturally there are compromises in those kits - often they come with cameras which are not as nice as we would like, however they are far superior to any "cloud camera" sold here in the USA in terms of image quality.

Typically some of the kits do not come with a full set of cameras, that is there are unused ports - and some people have added Dahua OEM cameras - or Hikvision OEM cameras to the available ports / channels of NVR kits they've picked up. This seems to work well for some looking to add a couple of nicer cameras to a kit.

The fact is that at $300-400 USD it's a challenge to achieve a decent setup that many of us would be happy enough with.

Currently in the USA the most affordable kit I would install in my mother's home so to speak is a $700-800 one.

Even if I look at more affordable Chinese market Dahua cameras, 6 cameras already consumes your budget. Cameras any cheaper are simply very poor quality and not worth the time to install.

 

[Pernod]

Thanks Mat, that's very helpful.

Unfortunately New Zealand is very poor on access to stuff like this. Realistically the only kits I can buy here are Coax which feels like a terrible option. I order lots of electrical parts from china so I'll do the same with cameras.

I'm naturally a 'tinkerer' so I'm fully expecting that over a couple of years I'll add/grow/improve the system - but I still need a starting point.

Given this, there has to be some logical first step for $300 from China. I figure having some cameras to start with is better than having none while I save up?

Based on that it really is sounding like getting some cheap Chinese Dahuas, lock them down behind a firewall with VPN only access, is the best compromise of cost vs getting a decent long term solution (although I suspect plently of people on here will be lining up to flame me for that view...)

 

[mat200]

..
Based on that it really is sounding like getting some cheap Chinese Dahuas, lock them down behind a firewall with VPN only access, is the best compromise of cost vs getting a decent long term solution (although I suspect plently of people on here will be lining up to flame me for that view...)

HI Pernod,

If you go that route, at least look for what other's here have to report about a particular model. Some Chinese market cameras are not as well known or supported - and thus you will have a LOT of headaches.

Be careful with some Aliepress vendors - there are many who are a bit deceptive in their descriptions. ( thus why we like Andy who keeps things honest in his descriptions )

Also as you are looking going this route recommend this thread.
Dahua Firmware Mod Kit + Modded Dahua Firmware

 

[giomania]

For me, I don’t like any more headaches, and would only get as many starlights as I could afford for now.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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[tigerwillow1]

If you get an NVR (as opposed to using Blue Iris), make sure you stick with one brand for the NVR and cameras, otherwise you'll have configuration headaches and features you can't use. My recommendation is to stick with Dahua. Just my experience and opinion, I'm fairly sure some others would disagree. Another piece of opinion, if you're already planning on 4 cameras, get an 8 channel NVR. A small added cost now to avoid a much bigger one down the road.