Do I need a IR Illuminator?

[akshayt]

I recently installed a Imou Bullet 2E . The daytime peefromance is good but at night camera can't see most of the area. The camera's built in IR illuminator is on. The only ambient light in the area is a street light opposite to the direction of the camera.

Daytime



Night


From some google searches it appears that I need to provide more ambient white light or IR in the area to solve this. Am I correct or should I do something else.

There is a led floodlight near the plants in the daytime image but I would prefer to not keep it on during night so I will install a ir illuminator there.

Thanks

 

[wittaj]

Can you rotate the camera or put in corridor mode?

You have IR bounce from that wall so close that is messing with the image.

 

[akshayt]

Will try rotating the camera.

Thanks

 

[TonyR]

+1 regarding @wittaj suggestion regarding IP bounce off that right side wall.....

If after trying corridor mode and/or panning left (horizontally) the IR still affects the image significantly, consider a small blinder/visor to the viewer's right/camera's left side. You could fashion a temp with black paper, adjust size and orientation, if it helps, make it weatherproof with thin sheet metal (paint flat black) or non-glossy black plastic.

That being said, I'll bet the suggested corridor-mode and camera re-orientation will make the biggest positive change and will be sufficient.

 

[akshayt]

I panned the camera a bit and it did help quite a bit.

I didn't have a screwdriver with appropriate head to lose the screw which holds the camera in position to pan it more freely. I will try a few more positions once I get the appropriate head.

Also I wanted to see the metal structure near the end of the photo would the camera's IR be enough or would I need another IR source(Planning to install a camera there to observe the stairs inside which might help with IR) or is that too far for the camera

Thanks

 

[mat200]

I panned the camera a bit and it did help quite a bit.
View attachment 168116
I didn't have a screwdriver with appropriate head to lose the screw which holds the camera in position to pan it more freely. I will try a few more positions once I get the appropriate head.

Also I wanted to see the metal structure near the end of the photo would the camera's IR be enough or would I need another IR source(Planning to install a camera there to observe the stairs inside which might help with IR) or is that too far for the camera

Thanks

Remember to test with a moving subject ..

 

[TonyR]

Also I wanted to see the metal structure near the end of the photo would the camera's IR be enough or would I need another IR source(Planning to install a camera there to observe the stairs inside which might help with IR) or is that too far for the camera

It likely would not hurt, ideally if you could tack one up temporarily to test, if improved significantly AND the foreground near the right side window is not as important you might be able to turn the cam's IR off and rely solely on the supplemental IR emitter.

Since your cam is not POE, you'd run a new line to supply 12VDC to the IR emitter, which generally has its own photo-electric cell to turn the IR on at dusk and off at dawn. Or run CAT-5e or 6, connect to a POE switch or injector with ample power output on the port, put a POE to 12VDC splitter at the end to power the IR emitter. The splitter is NOT weatherproof.
Review- New Design Tendelux 10 Watt IR illuminator.

 

[Alaska Country]

Yes, would second the opinion on adding an additional IR emitter (light) to illuminate the areas of interest. Plus, as suggested above, turn off the camera IR as your area of interest is at the far end.

Perhaps try mounting the IR lamp on the left post facing the far end. And there may also be a need to add a 2nd IR lamp at the far end to balance out the illumination. It is all a matter of experimentation.

Another consideration is to try casting the light across the path in place of down the path. That way illumination will not fall off as much. The downside is that more IR lamps will be required.

 

[Keizer]

I third the suggestion on an additional IR illuminator. It helped me considerably on my mini PTZ cam. In the left photo it shows the onboard IR with striping and IR glare off the dome. The right photo is the onboard IR turned off and my external IR illuminator turned on.

 

[wittaj]

Don't laugh but I use an IR illuminator with some Arlo cams and it works wonders for night vision. I turn off the IR on the Arlos and rely on the illuminator.

Please provide a sample image of an object in motion!

 

[wittaj]

My home is private and I don't post pics of it on the Internet. Sorry. Just buy one. They are not expensive and will surely help.

Well until you prove how wonderful they are here, nobody here gonna believe you LOL.

There are ways you can black out areas of an image so we can see just the movement of a person or car at night...

Many people come here after being burned by the Arlo...

My neighbors have Arlo and they are crap even with an illuminator.

Like EVERY SINGLE INCIDENT that has happened, at best their arlo could only tell the police what time they came by.

At worst, it missed the entire event when my neighbors car was broken into and his arlo is literally feet away from the car.

You do realize arlo will not work with Blue Iris.

 

[wittaj]

Im not here to prove anything about Arlo nor would I thump my chest if I owned the most expensive HikiVision cams. I am here because I am migrating from "consumer" level cams to something better. I thought the question was show me the effectiveness of an IR illuminator and I posted because I use them and thought my advice would help.

So you got the best cams on your block. I'm sure you are the envy of your 'hood. More power to you. lol Pick a fight with someone who cares beause I don't. It ain't nothing but a cam.

You are right, in your words "the question was show me the effectiveness", so I simply asked to show us the effectiveness as all you provided was words....show is a visual LOL...

Saying it improves it means nothing. People here want to see examples and proof. Why buy an illuminator if all it does is improve the static image but motion is still crap?

 

[akshayt]

Thanks for the suggestions will also try a ir illuminator. Would this illuminator be fine. Looks similar to this one on amazon us.

 

[akshayt]

Remember to test with a moving subject ..

Tested, was visible till around the middle after which it would be difficult to make out if anyone was there. The built in motion detection was kinda unreliable. Detected motion 1/3 times if I walked in front of the camera but motion was clearly visible in the stream

 

[TonyR]

Don't laugh but I use an IR illuminator with some Arlo cams and it works wonders for night vision.

I couldn't resist.....

 

[CCTVCam]

I read all the criticisms of consumer level cams and inability to detect facial recognition and plate numbers in motion. No need to demonstrate to me your knowledge and your powerful cams. I get it. Reminds me of someone who keeps saying hey look at my Ferrari. Some people don't care even if they are able to get the same. I commented on the illuminator not the Arlo cams.

I don't think this is about dick swinging but rather whether or not the illuminator can solve the whole range of issues experienced at night. Simply illuminating isn't the be all and end all of night vision. As mentioned before it might get you a great static image but very few people stand still unless actively picking a lock or something similar. so whereas it might work for a view covering a car where the guy works on the lock, in all probability, the guy is going to come along, walk up, throw a brick though the window, reach in quikcly and run off. In all of that there will be movement and as many of the pictures in the "consumer camera" thread show, they capture nothing as a result.

An IR illuminator will help solve the vision at the night, but only in so far as allowing the camera to see at SOME shutter speed. What you really need is the camera to see at fast shutter speed. eg on my 4KT cameras which see very well in the dark due to their 1/1.2" sensors, I still need 1/250th second (4ms) maximum shutter speed to guarantee no motion blur from a moving person. 1/125th second is acceptable (8ms) with some blur possible, but get below this, and blur becomes ever more problematic.

The 2nd problem people experience is with gain. People boast their consumer cameras see great at night and then a moving person becomes either pixellated or see through an indistinct like a ghost. This is gain in effect. You can get a great picture at night using gain to amplify the light from every pixel until something moves and then it's like Scooby Doo or Ghostbusters with Poltergeists everywhere.

So this isn't a dick swinging thread about my cameras better than yours, but rather a practical point about yes an IR illuminator can improve night vision provided you avoid reflection, but it can't necessarily improve picture quality when something moves. Hence, with any camera, cheap or expensive, it's important to test by moving through the area and reviewing the night footage to see if the picture and your face and identification ability holds up, if it doesn't, it's time to consider a change of camera before adding an illuminator.

An illuminator might decorate trash, like tinsel decorates a Christmas tree, but a Christmas tree with 3 branches and 1/2 a dozen needles on in, is still a Christmas tree with 3 branches and 1/2 a dozen needles on in when tinsel has been added. Sometimes it's worth assessing what the results will be before adding the tinsel and if necessary buying a better tree.

If the illuminator solves it and you can move quickly through the picture with no ghosting or blur, then you've cracked it, cheap or expensive camera alike. However, not very many cheap consumer cameras are going to achieve this in low light. If you find one, by all means keep it. My advice, try walking briskly though the already IR illuminated area at night and see how the picture turns out. This may give some hint as to what you'll get further out.

 

[wittaj]

Look dude, we are a group here that actually wants performance at night and helping people get there. Hence why another poster asked the OP for how does it look for motion...has nothing to do with bragging about cams. It is about helping people get the best performance from their cams. It is implied the OP wants the camera to perform better, not simply give a bright static image. Nobody told the OP to get a different camera...

Asking "Provide an image of an object in motion" is a very common question here.

If asking for pictures bothers you, then you might as well find another forum LOL because you are new to BI and this forum and will you will inevitably have questions and every time you ask a question about why isn't it doing this or that, the first thing someone is going to ask for is screenshots of the images or video and your settings.

You are wrong.... I wasn't bragging about my cams and wasn't taking over a thread and @CCTVCam nailed it 1000%. In fact most of the cameras people use here are cheaper than Ring cameras...

You could have simply said "External IR has helped my image" but even then someone would come by and ask "how is it with motion". This is not FB and Nextdoor where people simply accept a statement without proof.

We care here about capturing good motion that we can freeze frame for a picture as @CCTVCam correctly pointed out. That was my entire point.

But YOU added it was with an Arlo, so it was natural on this forum for someone to ask "Provide an image of an object in motion" as we have seen those are poor performing cameras and we do not want some future member to come here and do search on arlo and see your comment and think that adding external IR will make them magic and spend even more money trying to make the arlo better but still not provide them what they need.

It just happened to be me that asked it, so I get your wrath LOL. But it could have just as easily have been a member here with Arlos asking the same question to see if adding external IR would help their Arlos....

Photos are worth how many words?????

Maybe you found the secret sauce to turn Arlos into incredible night performance machines. Or maybe you simply made it a better static image camera with Casper the ghost with motion. That is all we are wanting to see since YOU mentioned arlos. Posting an image at night with motion may help a future Arlo owner out...

We would love to be able to tell those that come here with Arlos that adding external IR will help and point them to your post that shows what can be accomplished with external IR. I know in the case of my neighbor, adding external IR didn't help his arlos, but maybe you have a newer version that it does.

And yes there are instances where we tell people that a Ring camera system is totally appropriate for their situation, so we are not a bunch of snobs.

Heck many people here with better systems still run a Wyze or Ring cam or two because their app is much better for their wife and the wifey only cares about looking around.

But since you are calling this forum of bunch of camera snobs, that will probably end most of the members here from offering you help since you will turn it into a confrontational post LOL, so I will leave you with some parting camera advice LOL... you mentioned that you are "migrating from "consumer" level cams to something better", and in another thread you mentioned you are looking at Reolink to add to your BI system - good luck with that. You are going from one $#!+ camera to a worse one LOL.

Not only do they not play well with BI, they might even have worse night performance than the arlos you are migrating from... Here is a thread were Reolink users put up their best night images with motion and they are horrible and people are getting better images with cheaper cameras. How does your Arlo with external IR, or your Ring or Wyze, stack up to these images?

Reolink: Deconstruction of a dangerous misleading youtube review "Finding the BEST 4K Security Camera NVR Package (Reolink vs Amcrest vs Swann)"

Executive Summary: DO NOT be a sheep. Ask what a reviewer can be missing, ask if a reviewer is using hype words to sell the cheapest product. Test your cameras and kits right away. Just do a bench test. Test real world conditions. Test moving suspects. Test at night, test at day. Use a test rig...

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[CCTVCam]

The question was not about motion detection but about finding an illuminator that would illuminate a dark area.

Who said anything about motion detection? Unless your perp stands perfectly still, then the motion is going to be the issue for picture quality not detection and not whether you can illuminate a slug on the front lawn. Illuminating the area is only part of the equation and this is where your naievity is showing through. Anyone coming onto your property is 99% certain to be moving. If your camera can't set a low enough gain and high enough shutter combination to get a good picture of their face and a good still, then the camera isn't worth anything. Capturing an eveny is nothing. Identifying is everything.

Take a look at this thread containing many real life pictures taken from consumer security cameras and posted on sites such as Nextdoor or other social media asking for help with identification. Could you identify any of these if you know them?

The Typical picture of a Perp on Nextdoor-type Apps with Consumer Grade Cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, Canary, Wyze, etc.

Love these posts on Nextdoor type apps LOL. This thread will be used for members to post the poor quality consumer grade type camera images that we see people post to the Nextdoor type apps. Can anyone make out this person that went thru their cars LOL.... And this thread is where members...

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As Wittaj pointed out above. This isn't cameras snobbery. A 5442 Dahua will cost around £150 from Andy (Empire Tech / Lortya). An Arlo Pro 5 will cost around £220 from Arlo.

Now ask yourself, which will give a better picture both day and night? Off the top I can't answer that as I've not seen the Arlo Pro 5 in action but I'd put money on it being the Dahua at night and for around £70 cheaper. Why would I put money on it? Ones on a consumer sensor and the others on a professional sensor.

Here's a video from Youtube of the Arlo Pro 5 at night in colour. It looks to me as if it's obviously using built in spotlights to enable colour. Note the grain, lack of sharpness and slightly iffy movement of front badgers which suggests a lot of gain is at play. It looks to me as if any faster movement might become problematic:

I cannot comment if this is typical, just a users review video from Youtube with internal spotlights only, but I presume he's put up a typical video:





This is a sample from my £200 4KT again using internal spotlights only to keep an even playing field vs the Arlo Pro 5 above (taken seconds ago). There are no drive lights on here just the cameras internal spots which you can see reflecting off the number plates of the cars across the road for proof of light source:



I'll let you be the judge as to which is the better picture and yes they are both internal spotlight only. Where would you want to spend your money?

BTW mine will stand up to movement - that picture is taken on 1/250th second or 4ms if using the camera interval settings. It would be a lot brighter still with more gain or a slower shutter, not that either is needed. I don't even have the spots active normally although I do usually have drive lights set to trip on using sensors, as the camera sees well enough in total darkness to trip without any light and the drive sensor trips the drive lights on which are bright enough not to need the spots! I took this with drive lights inactive.

Yes its horses for courses. The Dahua is a technically challenging set up whereas your consumer cameras are typically easy. But to say it's money snobbery isn't true considering my cam is £20 cheaper at least vs the Arlo Pro 5 rrp.

 

[wittaj]

I have no beef over whether the specialty niche Chinese cams are better than the consumer branded ones. I already said that is why I am here as I am migrating away from the consumer brands. I am starting with the Reolink Duo 2 POE. What I found is Reolink is scored here due to their bad night vision. Which I saw myself versus others. The only other cam in my price point was an Annke selling at $99 while on sale. It didnt offer infrared and was really no better than the Duo based on videos I have seen. I wanted the infrared as a option. I have security lights which detect motion and I feel the Reolink will perform well as it does during the day when those lights are activated.

The 5442 Dahua you show definitely provides great clarity but its not really an apples to apples comparison IMO. I am sure its leaps and bounds better than the Arlo but you also enhanced the clarity with external lighting - exactly what I plan to do with the Reolink Duo. If it doesn't satisfy me, I will just move it to a different location and splurge 3 Benjamins for the higher end Annke 180 view cam unless you folks got better suggestions.

Try to learn from those of us that have been there/done that. Many of us have boxes full of discarded cams because we kept trying to "cheap" out or go with consumer brand thinking that was the answer LOL.

A wise member here frequently says "buy once, cry once". Save up and purchase cameras that will meet your intended goal, even if it means spreading them out. Otherwise your migration from consumer brands will take longer with money wasted. I get sick thinking about how many good cams I could have purchased instead of all these other consumer grade cams now just sitting in boxes LOL. I wish I had found this forum years before I did!

The Reolink thread I linked shows you the poor quality they produce at night. If it isn't better than what you have, why bother?

Many of us will give it to Reolink that they can produce some of the best daytime images, but that same algorithm to provide great daytime images results in poor nighttime images.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

If all you care about is to know what time something happened and maybe critter watch, the Reo's are probably okay. But if you want to IDENTIFY, especially at night, you need cams that won't change the settings to favor a bright static image that Reolinks are known to do.

It is well documented that the games that reolinks play at night to improve the static image wreak havoc trying to use those cameras in BI. Reolinks will drop the KEY down to 0.10, which means any movement that can be in and out of the field of view in under 10 seconds will be missed. People have come here with the reolink camera completely missing them driving their car into their garage!

And because the camera algorithm has made the static image nice and bright, here is usually what happens when a motion activated floodlight comes on - it just about completely blinds the camera right at the moment of optimal opportunity to get the picture. There are 3 deer in this picture and two of them are lost in the blinded white while the camera's exposure adjusts to the rapid change in available light and if this were a perp, the money shot is gone because the perp will be out of the image before the camera adjusts the exposure:

The Reolink Duo has been shown to be an issue with BI, along with the problematic issues at night.

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[wittaj]

The Annke is a good one, as is the Dahua equivalent. People here are torn on which one is better. I'd say go for the one you can get cheaper where you are.

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-Full-Color-Dual-Lens-Splicing-IPC-Color4K-T180/dp/B0BNN9DFFS/ref=sr_1_2?imprToken=eNnu.Pmf5hsW5hcTVECAQg&linkCode=w61&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1690167551&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&slotNum=0&sr=1-2