Expecting to much

[fenderman]

Sorry, streaming to a network admin means online.

Streaming from a camera to a nas is simple, as I stated, 99% of current business networks could easily stream around 8 lossless uncompressed 4K feeds(at once) before using bandwidth. Each camera would require about 125mbps, most networks are gig 10/100/1000, or 1000mbps. So no issue there. Storage also isn’t hard, as the drives can read/write at more than 20 times that speed.

You are no network admin. Streaming does not imply WAN activity. Lossless 4k would require way more than 125mbps and also consider overhead. A gig switch cannot transmit 1gig at saturation. You are in left field here.

 

[mat200]

Sorry, “IT” is broad, I work on the networking end. So I don’t deal with help desk type items or deal with formats, pixels, etc. I have an understanding of them, but that’s where my questions come from. Which was why is there a huge loss from a small pixel difference

@Dsmtweaker

If you're into networking, then I expect you to be even better with this stuff...

 

[Dsmtweaker]

You are no network admin. Streaming does not imply WAN activity. Lossless 4k would require way more than 125mbps and also consider overhead. A gig switch cannot transmit 1gig at saturation. You are in left field here.

Actually only 50-70MBps is recommended/required for 4K stream, so I am leaving double for headroom at 125.

Also, we run a separate switch for the cameras, so no overhead add on

 

[crw030]

I think a RED Helium 8k with a decent lens and waterproof case would be a good “stand in” for the DSLR and would fix this problem,

for a little over $30k.

The choke point, better angles and a couple extra cameras would also fix this for a lot less if you take heart of the guidance (and math) that applies to the security camera you have provided above.

 

[fenderman]

Actually only 50-70MBps is recommended/required for 4K stream, so I am leaving double for headroom at 125.

Also, we run a separate switch for the cameras, so no overhead add on

What are you talking about? recommended? Do you know how much bandwidth 4k LOSSLESS requires at 15fps?

 

[Dsmtweaker]

@Dsmtweaker

If you're into networking, then I expect you to be even better with this stuff...

Being a network admin means I should be better at security cameras? Should an oil change tech at jiffy lube be able to rebuild a transmission? Apples and oranges.

I did not install this system, or set it up. I was asked to swap out a 1080p camera with a 4K one that was handed to me. Then asked why it “didn’t look 4K” so here I am. So far all I have gotten is “because...read the sticky’s” since aside from the lens, the resolution difference, compression, etc. either can’t be, or havant been explained.

 

[fenderman]

Being a network admin means I should be better at security cameras? Should an oil change tech at jiffy lube be able to rebuild a transmission? Apples and oranges.

I did not install this system, or set it up. I was asked to swap out a 1080p camera with a 4K one that was handed to me. Then asked why it “didn’t look 4K” so here I am. So far all I have gotten is “because...read the sticky’s” since aside from the lens, the resolution difference, compression, etc. either can’t be, or havant been explained.

They have been explained. Now go watch a yourtube video on how to use google and learn about what compression is and does.

 

[Dsmtweaker]

What are you talking about? recommended? Do you know how much bandwidth 4k LOSSLESS requires at 15fps?

Yes, I can tell you exactly...at 15fps about 25MBps, at 60fps about 68MBps. So about 1/20th the bandwidth of an off the shelf switch.

I might not know cameras, but I know networks and transfer rates. 4K and 8k are not a network burden, they arnt even a consideration.

 

[Dsmtweaker]

They have been explained. Now go watch a yourtube video on how to use google and learn about what compression is and does.

I know what compression is and does, I know lossy vs lossless. And I know they don’t apply to a lan. Compression comes into play with online uploads and streams. But is completely unnecessary(aside from storage) for networks.

And it really hasn’t been explained. I still done understand why the dslr, at a marginally higher resolution, can capture a license plate 125 feet away, when the 4K camera can’t even see the car, let alone the plate.

 

[mat200]

Being a network admin means I should be better at security cameras? Should an oil change tech at jiffy lube be able to rebuild a transmission? Apples and oranges.

I did not install this system, or set it up. I was asked to swap out a 1080p camera with a 4K one that was handed to me. Then asked why it “didn’t look 4K” so here I am. So far all I have gotten is “because...read the sticky’s” since aside from the lens, the resolution difference, compression, etc. either can’t be, or havant been explained.

@Dsmtweaker

Seriously, I DO expect network IT folks to be a step above any desktop IT folks.

I also expect network IT professionals to know a LOT more about bandwidth and storage requirements gathering - which means even more about pixels, data, image formats w/regards to bandwidth and storage use, etc.. as well as the ability to work with the various business units to understand the compromises required to meet their data quality along with DLC requirements.

Yes, I can tell you exactly...at 15fps about 25MBps, at 60fps about 68MBps. So about 1/20th the bandwidth of an off the shelf switch.

I might not know cameras, but I know networks and transfer rates. 4K and 8k are not a network burden, they arnt even a consideration.

@Dsmtweaker come back tomorrow once you have the size of the image that you are using as a reference for your requirements. You can then use that to determine your needs.

 

[fenderman]

Yes, I can tell you exactly...at 15fps about 25MBps, at 60fps about 68MBps. So about 1/20th the bandwidth of an off the shelf switch.

I might not know cameras, but I know networks and transfer rates. 4K and 8k are not a network burden, they arnt even a consideration.

Nope. You do realize that a gigabit switch is gigabit and not bytes right? The theoretical max of a gigabit switch is 125 megaBYTES per second.
Not to mention the storage for that video (using your incorrect numbers) would be 1.5TB per HOUR per CAMERA!

 

[Dsmtweaker]

@Dsmtweaker

Seriously, I DO expect network IT folks to be a step above any desktop IT folks.

I also expect network IT professionals to know a LOT more about bandwidth and storage requirements gathering - which means even more about pixels, data, image formats w/regards to bandwidth and storage use, etc.. as well as the ability to work with the various business units to understand the compromises required to meet their data quality along with DLC requirements.

I apologize, but I work on standard windows environment networks. I don’t work with any camera systems, their recording, their transfers, their compression, none of that falls on a normal network admin.

That is all in the security camera installers/professionals line of work.

I work with exchange, SQL, etc. etc.

 

[crw030]

I'm really sorry but the camera you were handed isn't a good pick for what the owner wants to do. I feel like whoever selected the camera didn't know the first thing about it, and grabbed the first halfway decent brand-name 4k they could find.

I know I have a wide angle 2MP and identification is tough halfway to the curb, its functional but not lineup good. You need narrower field of view which is why everyone is saying you need a choke point, because you have a measure of control at a choke point that no longer requires so many pixels to cover such a wide horizontal space.

I just honestly think you are being asked to do too much with a single wide-angle camera. But arguing with the people best able to guide you in selecting the RIGHT camera (cameras probably) to accomplish the job isn't going to fix the problem either.

Work through the guidance about sensor size and shoot for the DORI numbers some of the experienced members have provided. I can't tell from the picture the distance from where the camera is mounted to the shed with the blue car in it, do you have an estimated distance?

 

[Dsmtweaker]

Nope. You do realize that a gigabit switch is gigabit and not bytes right? The theoretical max of a gigabit switch is 125 megaBYTES per second.
Not to mention the storage for that video (using your incorrect numbers) would be 1.5TB per HOUR per CAMERA!

Sure do, and 4K transfer rate lossless at 60fps is 50-70 magaBITS per socond, not megaBYTES.

 

[fenderman]

I know what compression is and does, I know lossy vs lossless. And I know they don’t apply to a lan. Compression comes into play with online uploads and streams. But is completely unnecessary(aside from storage) for networks.

And it really hasn’t been explained. I still done understand why the dslr, at a marginally higher resolution, can capture a license plate 125 feet away, when the 4K camera can’t even see the car, let alone the plate.

You dont even know what you dont know. The image you posted from the dslr is incredibly grainy and cannot be digitally zoomed in and yield the same result as you posted. You either got closer to the car or used optical zoom. Go ahead and try zooming in on the image you uploaded.

 

[fenderman]

Sure do, and 4K transfer rate lossless at 60fps is 50-70 magaBITS per socond, not megaBYTES.

you are confused on how to write the two megabytes vs megabits - Google Search
and you are further confused about RAW and "lossless". But you are the expert...

 

[Dsmtweaker]

I'm really sorry but the camera you were handed isn't a good pick for what the owner wants to do. I feel like whoever selected the camera didn't know the first thing about it, and grabbed the first halfway decent brand-name 4k they could find.

I know I have a wide angle 2MP and identification is tough halfway to the curb, its functional but not lineup good. You need narrower field of view which is why everyone is saying you need a choke point, because you have a measure of control at a choke point that no longer requires so many pixels to cover such a wide horizontal space.

I just honestly think you are being asked to do too much with a single wide-angle camera. But arguing with the people best able to guide you in selecting the RIGHT camera (cameras probably) to accomplish the job isn't going to fix the problem either.

Work through the guidance about sensor size and shoot for the DORI numbers some of the experienced members have provided. I can't tell from the picture the distance from where the camera is mounted to the shed with the blue car in it, do you have an estimated distance?

Thank you

And I am not trying to argue. I just know the owner is going to ask me what I asked. “Why can the dslr do both” so I was trying to find an answer that made sense.

They have a wide angle to see the back door to the building, and cover the lot.

The best I can come up with is the security camera doesn’t have a setting like fstops on a dslr, which lets you pick how much is in focus/detail. Along with having a better sensor/lens.

 

[Dsmtweaker]

Well

You dont even know what you dont know. The image you posted from the dslr is incredibly grainy and cannot be digitally zoomed in and yield the same result as you posted. You either got closer to the car or used optical zoom. Go ahead and try zooming in on the image you uploaded.

Well, I laterally took 1 picture. I didn’t take a bunch and choose, the memory card had 1 single jpeg on it. So I don’t know what to tell you. I zoomed in Lightroom, then uploaded it.

I’m not at my PC to check if the resolution of the picture is different than what the site is displaying

 

[mat200]

I apologize, but I work on standard windows environment networks. I don’t work with any camera systems, their recording, their transfers, their compression, none of that falls on a normal network admin.

That is all in the security camera installers/professionals line of work.

I work with exchange, SQL, etc. etc.

Hi @Dsmtweaker

I do expect people who work with SQL to know about BLOB storage requirements, and exchange admins to also know about storage requirements and assisting users in keeping to their quotes. In both cases I do expect the admin to know DLC issues and data storage requirements along with the associated bandwidth requires. Furthermore any IT professional I still expect to know the basics of IT facts.

Seriously all the stuff I have listed is really basic IT stuff.

 

[Dsmtweaker]

you are confused on how to write the two megabytes vs megabits - Google Search
and you are further confused about RAW and "lossless". But you are the expert...

Sorry, types them backwards, but the point is the same. Only need 25 megabytes/sec for 4K at 15fps

And my camera “lingo” might be off, but again the point is the same. Raw/lossless... I am saying 100% no compression or downsizing