High Level Questions from a new Member

[marsui]

So I started looking into Home Security cameras, and although I love the ease of cameras like Ring, and their low cost monthly cloud storage options I knew right away that Wifi is crap. I have two wired indoor cameras that I use to monitor my young children in their cribs and even though they are wired, not being in control of setting up the internet access of those cameras already causes me issues.....anywho that's my limited background.

My entire home is already wired for ethernet, former homeowner was a network engineer, there is a patch panel in the basement, every room has two ethernet jacks, and I have a 50 port gigabit switch. I plan on getting a POE switch and use 1 of the 2 ports in each room that is close to where I want a camera to be outside to be POE ports for my cameras and I can just poke a hole through the wall for the Ethernet cable.

So on to my questions, basically they are all around which components are responsible for what.

1. Where is the processing for motion detection/recording in general? Is that part of the camera hardware or is that something your back-end handles (be it blue iris or an NVR)?

2. How are motion zones configured, is that something on board on the camera, or your back-end?

3. Same question on alerts?

4. If I went NVR over blue iris, does an NVR have a login page with configuration options for the cameras?

I watched a video on Blue Iris, and I see a ton of configuration options like resolution, frame rate etc...and I'm just a little confused how back-end software manages that, is it somehow abstracting away the configuration of different cameras, or is it displaying what it knows the camera can do? Are most cameras configurable on an individual direct to camera basis without back-end software?

Could I Just buy let's say a Dahua camera, power it with POE, and just let it use the SD card for very little recording? (I wouldn't do this I'm just trying to understand what the camera can do on its own) Would I then use some app or something to directly configure certain things on the camera?

I know I have a ton of research to do, which I look forward to, but again just trying to understand what is responsible for what. I want to start with 1 camera for the front of my house, mainly to cover my front door for packages and to watch over my Robot lawnmower then I will expand from there.

Thanks

 

[SouthernYankee]

-----------------------------------
Ring is garbage.

Blue Iris does not set resolution or frame rate, that is done in the cameras. Blue iris sets nothing in the cameras, camera configuration is in the camera.

You can use an SD card to record the camera, but then you would need to expose the camera to the internet to externally (away form home) view the video. Not a good idea.
-----------------------------------
My standard welcome to the forum message.

Please read the cliff notes and other items in the wiki. The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) | IP Cam Talk in the wiki also.

Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras or ICPT Night eye cameras (https://store.ipcamtalk.com/) if you need good low light cameras.
3) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
4) Do not use wifi cameras.
5) Do not use cloud storage
6) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
7) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
8) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
9) Do not use reolink, ring, nest cameras (they are junk)
10) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
11) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
12) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
13) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 8ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
14) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
15) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator V3

Cameras to look at
IPC-HDW2231R-ZS Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal
IPC-HDW5231-ZE Review-Dahua Starlight IPC-HDW5231R-ZE 800 meter capable ePOE
IPC-HFW4239T-ASE IPC-HFW4239T-ASE
IPC-T5442TM-AS Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+)
IPCT-HDW5431RE-I Review - IP Cam Talk 4 MP IR Fixed Turret Network Camera
DS-2CD2325FWD-I
IPC-T5442TM-AS https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/review-oem-4mp-ai-cam-ipc-t5442tm-as-starlight.39203/ - 4MP starlight+

Other dahua 4MP starlight https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/dahua-4mp-starlight-lineup.42000/#post-388253

My preferred indoor cameras
DS-2CD2442FWD-IW
IPC-K35A https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/review-dahua-ipc-k35a-3mp-cube-camera.37581/#post-373517

If interested in Blue Iris and other setup items see the following post
https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/newbie-starter-guide-to-ip-cam-system-–-vpn-setup-–-computer-hardware-–-blue-iris-–-dahua-cameras.42278/

Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
Test do not guess

 

[catcamstar]

HI @marsui,
in addition to @SouthernYankee's extensive welcome message:
1) depending on what you want: Dahua cams (cannot speak for hikvision, but it is probably the same) can work "independently" from NVR/BI: you insert SD card, you define your "motion detection" areas/zones, sensitivity, IVS tripwires etc. When alarm is breached, it records, sends mails with snapshots etc. The thing is: processing is done "in" the camera, but you'd need a ton of SD cards if you have a "ton" of camera's. Manageability becomes at stake then. See Q4 below
2) See Q1: if they run in independent mode: yes, on the camera
3) See Q1: if they run in independent mode: yes, camera send out "alarms" (eg mails). There are even camera's with ALARM IO wires, which you can connect to an alarm system/arduino/rasperry pi etc.
4) and here we come to the fun part: if you have ample camera's, you do want to have a "centralised" system. Be aware: if you have Dahua cams, it is advisable to stick to Dahua NVR. This being said: the NVR has 1 login page, on which you can configure ALL settings of each individual camera (eg motion detection, tripwires etc). You can even set "complex" stuff (eg if cam 1 is breached, start recording cam 2 and 5). Mails, snapshots, all remains "centralised" in the NVR, however, each cam "carries" its own configuration. Firmwares of the downstream camera's can be managed from the NVR itself. I cannot make any comments on BI, but I prefer appliance above have-to-manage windows pc But that's a personal choice. Why? Because I hate windows update (and don't joke about disabling it), and yes, that nvr appliance might be "at risk too", but I put it in a dark vlan, where no lights come in or go out, a poor windows pc would die in such an environment

Hope this helps!
CC

 

[aristobrat]

If I went NVR over blue iris, does an NVR have a login page with configuration options for the cameras?

For the most part yes, but there are times when a newer model camera will have features (or settings) that haven't been added to the NVR firmware yet. In that case the NVR can't be used to configure that aspect of the camera and you'll have to use a web browser to directly connect to the camera to make those changes until the NVR firmware catches up.

Blue Iris has limited ability to reach out and change settings on the cameras, mostly things like toggling IR on/off, changing the zoom/focus, PTZ presets, etc. For things that rarely get changed (resolution, frames per second, etc) you connect to the camera's web interface and change those real quick yourself. Easy peasy.

To add to the comment about "if you have XXX cameras, stick to the same brand NVR". IMO, that's good advice because it can directly affect your motion detection options. NVRs typically have minimal processing abilities and are not capable of performing their own motion detection, so they rely on each camera to do its own motion detection. Here's where it gets nuanced. Dahua/Hik pro-grade cameras have two types of motion detection: basic (simply called "motion detection") and advanced (Dahua's is called "IVS", Hik's is called "Smart Events"). In order for a NVR to use a camera's advanced motion detection, the brand of the NVR and the camera have to be the same. If not, you're limited to basic motion detection, which is a situation you don't want to be in (IMO).

Blue Iris is a different beast when it comes to motion detection and for the most part is camera brand agnostic. Since it runs on a PC, there's enough horsepower for BI to do its own motion detection. This means you get the same motion detection capabilities across all of your cameras, regardless of their brand. BI also gives you the option to use the camera's built-in motion detection if you want... sometimes a camera will have a neat feature that helps motion detection accuracy (like a built-in PIR sensor) where the camera will likely be more accurate.

 

[windguy]

@aristobrat - Your post above is well done and very helpful. You have a knack for explaining things in an easy to understand manner. Thanks! This info needs to be copied into a wiki somewhere (not sure where) for future reference for newbies and noobs like me.

 

[marsui]

Thanks all, very helpful.

@catcamstar I agree with you of having an appliance versus a windows PC. Windows 10 seems to be pretty stable, but still. I used to try to have multiple machines in my house, one as a media server, one as my gaming PC, but I gave up, and now my gaming PC is my media server. I keep it on all the time, I can remote access from work, it's constantly downloading shows for me, pushing them to my mobile device, hosting my plex server, backing up my photos from Amazon, and its a beast of a gaming machine, I use my HTC VR headset on it without any issues. I am going to see what happens if I also use it to record my security cam footage, I might overload the thing but I'll see what happens, if that's the case I'll decide what to do then.

On to camera research!

 

[catcamstar]

Thanks all, very helpful.

@catcamstar I agree with you of having an appliance versus a windows PC. Windows 10 seems to be pretty stable, but still. I used to try to have multiple machines in my house, one as a media server, one as my gaming PC, but I gave up, and now my gaming PC is my media server. I keep it on all the time, I can remote access from work, it's constantly downloading shows for me, pushing them to my mobile device, hosting my plex server, backing up my photos from Amazon, and its a beast of a gaming machine, I use my HTC VR headset on it without any issues. I am going to see what happens if I also use it to record my security cam footage, I might overload the thing but I'll see what happens, if that's the case I'll decide what to do then.

On to camera research!

I manage 10+ pc's at home, with specific softwares on them. Last Thursdays windows update managed to kill 4 of them. Boot loops. Recovery did not work, had to re-install. Lots of people on the forum shout: "do not update camera/nvr firmware if not needed", but I'd argue the same for windows update. But what is the point in running these machines with potential backdoors.

And that's why I would never ever put ANY "untrustworthy" device (being a smart TV, IOT device (smart fridge) or any (chinese) IP camera) in my subnet with my NAS containing my movies/series/nature documentaries/holiday pictures etc. A BI pc or NVR falls in that same category. No inbound access nor outbound access. Except through (allow one deny all) firewall strategy. Just to avoid that a cam/fridge/... goes rogue and smashes a bitlocker on your precious samba shares.

I'm the last person to state you have to deploy "enterprise grade" networking stuff (like firewalls, vlans, ... ) however my advice is to think over your options. They do exist for DIY and home situations. And they don't tend to cost $1000+ like they used to do.

In any case, especially with "labour intensive harvesting" of "collectibles", make sure you have backups

Good luck researching your cameras!
CC

 

[looney2ns]

Thanks all, very helpful.

@catcamstar I agree with you of having an appliance versus a windows PC. Windows 10 seems to be pretty stable, but still. I used to try to have multiple machines in my house, one as a media server, one as my gaming PC, but I gave up, and now my gaming PC is my media server. I keep it on all the time, I can remote access from work, it's constantly downloading shows for me, pushing them to my mobile device, hosting my plex server, backing up my photos from Amazon, and its a beast of a gaming machine, I use my HTC VR headset on it without any issues. I am going to see what happens if I also use it to record my security cam footage, I might overload the thing but I'll see what happens, if that's the case I'll decide what to do then.

On to camera research!

Study the links that were left for you a couple message's up.

 

[marsui]

-----------------------------------
Ring is garbage.

Blue Iris does not set resolution or frame rate, that is done in the cameras. Blue iris sets nothing in the cameras, camera configuration is in the camera.

You can use an SD card to record the camera, but then you would need to expose the camera to the internet to externally (away form home) view the video. Not a good idea.
-----------------------------------
My standard welcome to the forum message.

Please read the cliff notes and other items in the wiki. The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) | IP Cam Talk in the wiki also.

Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras or ICPT Night eye cameras (https://store.ipcamtalk.com/) if you need good low light cameras.
3) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
4) Do not use wifi cameras.
5) Do not use cloud storage
6) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
7) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
8) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
9) Do not use reolink, ring, nest cameras (they are junk)
10) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
11) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
12) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
13) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 8ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
14) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
15) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator V3

Cameras to look at
IPC-HDW2231R-ZS Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal
IPC-HDW5231-ZE Review-Dahua Starlight IPC-HDW5231R-ZE 800 meter capable ePOE
IPC-HFW4239T-ASE IPC-HFW4239T-ASE
IPC-T5442TM-AS Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+)
IPCT-HDW5431RE-I Review - IP Cam Talk 4 MP IR Fixed Turret Network Camera
DS-2CD2325FWD-I
IPC-T5442TM-AS Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ - 4MP starlight+

Other dahua 4MP starlight Dahua 4MP Starlight Lineup

My preferred indoor cameras
DS-2CD2442FWD-IW
IPC-K35A Review-Dahua IPC-K35A 3mp Cube Camera

If interested in Blue Iris and other setup items see the following post
https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/newbie-starter-guide-to-ip-cam-system-–-vpn-setup-–-computer-hardware-–-blue-iris-–-dahua-cameras.42278/

Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
Test do not guess

So a couple questions:

1. I was playing around with setting up OpenVpn on my asus router, for another purpose a few weeks ago, didn't work for me since my job blocks me from being able to VPN, however I have the SSH server turned on in my asus router and I have an app on my android phone called SSH tunnel maker which uses this to direct all traffic on my phone through my SSH server - would this be a secure enough way to access my cameras remotely?

2. With your "Do not user cloud storage", are you saying I should not ever use the cloud to backup my video from my cameras? I do plan on storing locally but I always wanted an online backup in case anyone breaks and somehow manages to find my security setup and destroy. OR what if someone were to try to set my house on fire, I'd want the footage to be backed up offsite (obviously these are extreme cases).

 

[looney2ns]

2-Cloud anything is not secure. Puts your home network at risk. Do you really want your stuff stored on an unknown server in china?
Back it up to a NAS if you want backup.
Put the NVR in a non-obvious location, although it's very rare that what you are concerned about happens.