How to install PoE camera with limited attic access?

[Nixer22]

I have been researching outdoor cameras and installation for PoE for awhile now and am a bit overwhelmed. Terms like PoE switch, injectors, and powerline adapters, junction boxes, nvr are circling around in my head to the point that I don't feel like I know anymore now than I did when I first started.

Here's my situation. I would like to buy four POE outdoor cameras for the four sides of my house. The problem is that my house is basically a ranch style house composed of three different sections. Of course, all of the sections are connected, but the design makes the attic area appear disconnected. There's the east section with a garage and attic space above it; the west section with attic access (router is located in a room in this section - it's also where NVR would go); finally, the middle section - which is main living area that has a cathedral ceiling with no attic space.

I don't think I will have any problem getting the ethernet into the west side of the house, but how do I get it from the east side over to the router/nvr located on the west side? North and south would also be a bit difficult.

A couple other items to note: Would be difficult to run the cable outside along the soffit, not impossible, but very difficult. Basement where the modem is located, has a finished ceiling in all but two rooms. I do have CAT 5 ran from the modem to the rooms in the basement and might be able to get the east side ethernet to one of those, but I'm not even sure that is beneficial in any way?

I'm going to apologize upfront for my limited understanding of some of the terminology that I've seen here and on other sites. I'm willing to learn, but if you all can have a bit of patience with me in that process, I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

 

[Swampledge]

Welcome to IPCamTalk!
Here’s a stab at sorting out all the equipment you need to consider :
You need a modem to convert the internet access from your provider to an Ethernet system.
The router allows devices in your house network to talk to the internet through your modem.
If you have WiFi in your house, that’s provided by an access point that’s connected to your router.

What makes it confusing is that most internet providers supply one device that has the modem, router, and access point all built into it.

When you use POE cameras, they need to be connected to your network by Ethernet cabling. Think of network switches as junction boxes, because networking is not as simple as just twisting wires together. The switches, if ” POE” switches can provide the power to cameras connected to them . If you don’t use POE switches, you’ll need an injector to inject the power into the camera cable between the non-POE switch and the camera.

By the way, if your router has LAN ports for wired devices, it also contains a switch. Most do. But you don’t want to have all your cameras connected to your network at your router. It’s better to have your cameras connected to your network at a separate switch.

Did you know that you don’t need a router to have a functioning POE camera system? You need a router if you want to access your system from outside your network, but you don’t want your network to depend on your router as it’s ”hub.”

If all this makes sense to you, the next thing you need to figure out how you want to make use of your cameras’ output. Most people do it by using either a Network video recorder, or a computer-based video system such as Blue Iris.

Make sure you do a lot of reading here (and asking questions) before spending money. People here are incredibly helpful.

 

[Starglow]

The old saying where there's a will there's a way applies here. Figure out where you want to mount the cameras and then determine all possible access points to those areas to run cable. In some cases even cathedral ceilings have enough access space to run a cable but you might have to fish it through with a long fiberglass rod made for that purpose or some other method. Just be creative in your planning. Also consider mounting the cameras on a pole away from the house...that's what I did and it gives me a full parameter view. Not an easy install but the results are worth the effort.

 

[mat200]

I have been researching outdoor cameras and installation for PoE for awhile now and am a bit overwhelmed. Terms like PoE switch, injectors, and powerline adapters, junction boxes, nvr are circling around in my head to the point that I don't feel like I know anymore now than I did when I first started.

Here's my situation. I would like to buy four POE outdoor cameras for the four sides of my house. The problem is that my house is basically a ranch style house composed of three different sections. Of course, all of the sections are connected, but the design makes the attic area appear disconnected. There's the east section with a garage and attic space above it; the west section with attic access (router is located in a room in this section - it's also where NVR would go); finally, the middle section - which is main living area that has a cathedral ceiling with no attic space.

I don't think I will have any problem getting the ethernet into the west side of the house, but how do I get it from the east side over to the router/nvr located on the west side? North and south would also be a bit difficult.

A couple other items to note: Would be difficult to run the cable outside along the soffit, not impossible, but very difficult. Basement where the modem is located, has a finished ceiling in all but two rooms. I do have CAT 5 ran from the modem to the rooms in the basement and might be able to get the east side ethernet to one of those, but I'm not even sure that is beneficial in any way?

I'm going to apologize upfront for my limited understanding of some of the terminology that I've seen here and on other sites. I'm willing to learn, but if you all can have a bit of patience with me in that process, I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

Welcome @Nixer22

"I would like to buy four POE outdoor cameras for the four sides of my house. The problem is that my house is basically a ranch style house composed of three different sections."

1) Plan for more than just 4 cameras .. get one decent varifocal camera and setup a test rig if you are new to this ..
2) consider running conduit under the eves .. ( and junction boxes )

 

[Nixer22]

Welcome to IPCamTalk!
Here’s a stab at sorting out all the equipment you need to consider :
You need a modem to convert the internet access from your provider to an Ethernet system.
The router allows devices in your house network to talk to the internet through your modem.
If you have WiFi in your house, that’s provided by an access point that’s connected to your router.

What makes it confusing is that most internet providers supply one device that has the modem, router, and access point all built into it.

When you use POE cameras, they need to be connected to your network by Ethernet cabling. Think of network switches as junction boxes, because networking is not as simple as just twisting wires together. The switches, if ” POE” switches can provide the power to cameras connected to them . If you don’t use POE switches, you’ll need an injector to inject the power into the camera cable between the non-POE switch and the camera.

By the way, if your router has LAN ports for wired devices, it also contains a switch. Most do. But you don’t want to have all your cameras connected to your network at your router. It’s better to have your cameras connected to your network at a separate switch.

Did you know that you don’t need a router to have a functioning POE camera system? You need a router if you want to access your system from outside your network, but you don’t want your network to depend on your router as it’s ”hub.”

If all this makes sense to you, the next thing you need to figure out how you want to make use of your cameras’ output. Most people do it by using either a Network video recorder, or a computer-based video system such as Blue Iris.

Make sure you do a lot of reading here (and asking questions) before spending money. People here are incredibly helpful.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and provide this information!

I have done quite a bit of reading, both here and on other sites. For some reason though, the information on this topic just doesn't want to stick in my head so that I can analyze it in a meaningful way. My modem and router are separate units. The entry point is the same as my modem. The router does have the LAN ports and a switch. Our WiFi is via fiber optics, so it's pretty fast and fairly reliable. I've actually thought about using WiFi cameras, but most of the research that I'm reading states that they aren't as reliable and the video quality isn't as good. I have also read about Blue Iris a bit, but don't understand it well enough to know if that would be better for my situation than a NVR might be. I will mostly want to access it at night, while I'm at home.

So, if a network switch is similar to a junction box, then I would assume that I would run the Ethernet cable from the camera to it, but wouldn't I still need to be able to run power from it? And if so, to...where? You stated that I didn't need a router to have a functioning POE camera system. Very much interested in knowing how I could to that because that might solve my problem.

 

[Nixer22]

The old saying where there's a will there's a way applies here. Figure out where you want to mount the cameras and then determine all possible access points to those areas to run cable. In some cases even cathedral ceilings have enough access space to run a cable but you might have to fish it through with a long fiberglass rod made for that purpose or some other method. Just be creative in your planning. Also consider mounting the cameras on a pole away from the house...that's what I did and it gives me a full parameter view. Not an easy install but the results are worth the effort.

I have about 2 acres and actually kind of like the idea of putting the cameras on a pole, but I'm not sure it would cover the areas that I would like to monitor. Did you just run underground conduit from the pole to the house?

 

[Nixer22]

Welcome @Nixer22

"I would like to buy four POE outdoor cameras for the four sides of my house. The problem is that my house is basically a ranch style house composed of three different sections."

1) Plan for more than just 4 cameras .. get one decent varifocal camera and setup a test rig if you are new to this ..
2) consider running conduit under the eves .. ( and junction boxes )

Welcome @Nixer22

Thank you!

Yes, I probably would get more than 4 cameras down the road. I have read about the different zones: observation, detection, recognition and identification , and that a person wants different cameras for those different zones. But, for right now, I'm mostly looking at the observation and detection areas as I don't have a big issue with security per say. My most immediate concern is having the ability to know when someone has entered my property and to be able to see what they're doing. That said, I wouldn't mind being able to at least recognize the individual as a person and not just an animal.

I have thought about running conduit under the eves. It's not my first choice and was trying to see if there was any other feasible option before committing to doing it that way.

 

[looney2ns]

Call an electrician that is low voltage certified.
They do this sort of stuff day in and day out.
You would be surprised how quickly and neatly they could accomplish this.

 

[Swampledge]

NVRs are really computers with the manufacturer‘s software. Blue Iris is NVR software that runs on a Windows PC. I went with Blue Iris because It can accomodate a wide range of cameras, and it is continually supported and upgraded, plus, in the event of hardware failure, it can be reinstalled on another PC.

POE means Power Over Ethernet. All Ethernet switches require power, since they are very simple computers that receive a data packet on one port, then send it out on another port that is associated with the device that’s waiting for the packet. Because the switch requires power to operate, it can be designed to send power to the camera over the same Ethernet cable transmitting the data.

Remember that a router is designed to connect your local network to a different network (the internet.) The simplest network consists of a computer connected to another computer or another Ethernet device, like an IP camera. In fact, many here keep cameras from ever reaching the internet by segregating them on a separate network, and running Blue Iris on a PC with two network cards to ”straddle“ the two networks. The PC can talk to the router on one network port, and the cameras on another, but the cameras can never “see” the router. You could do the same, but it is still best done by running an Ethernet cable from the NVR or Blue Iris PC to the network you want to view the cameras on. A Poweline adapter might work for you. I use a $50 power line adapter to transmit two WiFi cams’ signal from a barn to an outbuilding with Ethernet cabling to my house. Next month I’ll be testing whether it’s up to the task of handling two better quality wired IP cams.

 

[Swampledge]

@Nixer22 , I see your concerns about seeing and recognizing intruders on your property. Be sure to read and understand the principles of DORI when selecting and locating cameras.

 

[Starglow]

I have about 2 acres and actually kind of like the idea of putting the cameras on a pole, but I'm not sure it would cover the areas that I would like to monitor. Did you just run underground conduit from the pole to the house?

Yes....I buried gray electrical PVC pipe in the ground running to the poles and then up the poles. My 'poles" are actually 16' pressure treated 4x4's buried in concrete 3' in the ground....I used those cardboard tubes you can buy at Home Depot. So my cameras are about 12-13' above ground level. You can use PTZ cameras to monitor your targeted acreage areas.

 

[Nixer22]

Call an electrician that is low voltage certified.
They do this sort of stuff day in and day out.
You would be surprised how quickly and neatly they could accomplish this.

I'd love to have someone else do it! Especially someone with experience and specific knowledge on it. The problem is that I'm on a bit of a budget and with the price of the cameras, ethernet, etc., paying for labor, too, would put me way over budget.

 

[Nixer22]

NVRs are really computers with the manufacturer‘s software. Blue Iris is NVR software that runs on a Windows PC. I went with Blue Iris because It can accomodate a wide range of cameras, and it is continually supported and upgraded, plus, in the event of hardware failure, it can be reinstalled on another PC.

POE means Power Over Ethernet. All Ethernet switches require power, since they are very simple computers that receive a data packet on one port, then send it out on another port that is associated with the device that’s waiting for the packet. Because the switch requires power to operate, it can be designed to send power to the camera over the same Ethernet cable transmitting the data.

Remember that a router is designed to connect your local network to a different network (the internet.) The simplest network consists of a computer connected to another computer or another Ethernet device, like an IP camera. In fact, many here keep cameras from ever reaching the internet by segregating them on a separate network, and running Blue Iris on a PC with two network cards to ”straddle“ the two networks. The PC can talk to the router on one network port, and the cameras on another, but the cameras can never “see” the router. You could do the same, but it is still best done by running an Ethernet cable from the NVR or Blue Iris PC to the network you want to view the cameras on. A Poweline adapter might work for you. I use a $50 power line adapter to transmit two WiFi cams’ signal from a barn to an outbuilding with Ethernet cabling to my house. Next month I’ll be testing whether it’s up to the task of handling two better quality wired IP cams.

I "think" it might be starting to click a bit in my head. Let me test it out.

So, if I put a Ethernet switch in my attic on the far side of the house, I would need to run some type of power line from the switch to a power source in the attic . I could then plug the POE camera on that side into the switch and it would work the same as if it were on the other side of the house because it would be plugged into my network. Is that correct? If so, would this be like a Cat 5 or 6 that I would use for the power cable?

I've read about the Powerline adapters, but am a little confused on them. Are they just to help expand your wifi, so a person would only use it if they had wifi cameras? What do you think of the wifi cameras? I've gone back and forth between them and the POE cameras just because they would be easier. But, I'm just not sure if I'd be wasting my money on cameras with poor visibility. Also, do you prefer the Blue Iris over the NVR?

 

[Nixer22]

Yes....I buried gray electrical PVC pipe in the ground running to the poles and then up the poles. My 'poles" are actually 16' pressure treated 4x4's buried in concrete 3' in the ground....I used those cardboard tubes you can buy at Home Depot. So my cameras are about 12-13' above ground level. You can use PTZ cameras to monitor your targeted acreage areas.

I really like this idea. There is a city light/siren pole (I live on the edge of town) that sits on the outside edge of my property that I would love to use for this purpose. Save a bit on electrical wire and pvc pipe. Thinkin' that the city wouldn't be too happy with me if I did that though, lol.

 

[wittaj]

I "think" it might be starting to click a bit in my head. Let me test it out.

So, if I put a Ethernet switch in my attic on the far side of the house, I would need to run some type of power line from the switch to a power source in the attic . I could then plug the POE camera on that side into the switch and it would work the same as if it were on the other side of the house because it would be plugged into my network. Is that correct? If so, would this be like a Cat 5 or 6 that I would use for the power cable?

I've read about the Powerline adapters, but am a little confused on them. Are they just to help expand your wifi, so a person would only use it if they had wifi cameras? What do you think of the wifi cameras? I've gone back and forth between them and the POE cameras just because they would be easier. But, I'm just not sure if I'd be wasting my money on cameras with poor visibility. Also, do you prefer the Blue Iris over the NVR?

No, powerline adapters are for wired cameras - it uses your existing electric lines to run the data. They work great for the problem location to run ethernet but power is close by. I have been using a few for years.


Wifi and cameras do not go together.

There are always ways if you don't want to run an ethernet cable.

You need power anyway, so go with a powerline adapter to run the date over your electric lines or use a nano-station.

Maybe you are fine now one day with wifi cams, but one day something will happen. A new device, neighbors microwave, etc.

Cameras connected to Wifi routers (whether wifi or not) are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent, especially once you start adding distance. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

So the more cameras you add, the bigger the potential for issues.

Many people unfortunately think wifi cameras are the answer and they are not. People will say what about Ring and Nest - well that is another whole host of issues that we will not discuss here LOL, but they are not streaming 24/7, only when you pull up the app. And then we see all the people come here after that system failed them because their wifi couldn't keep up when the perp came by. For streaming 24/7 to something like an NVR or Blue Iris, forget about it if you want reliability.


This was a great test that SouthernYankee tried and posted about it here:

I did a WIFI test a while back with multiple 2MP cameras each camera was set to VBR, 15 FPS, 15 Iframe, 3072kbs, h.264. Using a WIFI analyzer I selected the least busy channel (1,6,11) on the 2.4 GHZ band and set up a separate access point. With 3 cameras in direct line of sight of the AP about 25 feet away I was able to maintain a reasonable stable network with only intermittent signal drops from the cameras. Added a 4th camera and the network became totally unstable. Also add a lot of motion to the 3 cameras caused some more network instability. More data more instability.
The cameras are nearly continuously transmitting. So any lost packet causes a retry, which cause more traffic, which causes more lost packets.
WIFI does not have a flow control, or a token to transmit. So your devices transmit any time they want, more devices more collisions.
As a side note, it is very easy to jam a WIFI network. WIFI is fine for watching the bird feed but not for home surveillance and security.
The problem is like standing in a room, with multiple people talking to you at the same time about different subjects. You need to answer each person or they repeat the question.

Test do not guess.

For a 802.11G 2.4 GHZ WIFI network the Theoretical Speed is 54Mbps (6.7MBs) real word speed is nearer to 10-29Mbps (1.25-3.6 MBs) for a single channel

And TonyR recommends this (which is the preferred way IF you want to do wifi)

The only way I'd have wireless cams is the way I have them now: a dedicated 802.11n, 2.4GHz Access Point for 3 cams, nothing else uses that AP. Its assigned channel is at the max separation from another 2.4GHz channel in the house. There is no other house near me for about 300 yards and we're separated by dense foliage and trees.

Those 3 cams are indoor, non-critical pet cams (Amcrest IP2M-841's) streaming to Blue Iris and are adequately reliable for their jobs. They take their turns losing signal/reconnecting usually about every 12 hours or so for about 20 seconds which I would not tolerate for an outdoor surveillance cam pointed at my house and/or property.

But for me, this works in my situation: dedicated AP, non-critical application and periodic, short-term video loss.... if any one of those 3 conditions can't be achieved or tolerated, then I also do not recommend using wireless cams.

 

[AzN_NiNjA01]

I "think" it might be starting to click a bit in my head. Let me test it out.

So, if I put a Ethernet switch in my attic on the far side of the house, I would need to run some type of power line from the switch to a power source in the attic . I could then plug the POE camera on that side into the switch and it would work the same as if it were on the other side of the house because it would be plugged into my network. Is that correct? If so, would this be like a Cat 5 or 6 that I would use for the power cable?

I've read about the Powerline adapters, but am a little confused on them. Are they just to help expand your wifi, so a person would only use it if they had wifi cameras? What do you think of the wifi cameras? I've gone back and forth between them and the POE cameras just because they would be easier. But, I'm just not sure if I'd be wasting my money on cameras with poor visibility. Also, do you prefer the Blue Iris over the NVR?

I agree with the above. I was going to suggest trying out powerline adapters for your main living area that has a cathedral ceiling if you don't have a good way to route the cat5 or 6. and run the ethernet wires where you can.

 

[Swampledge]

I "think" it might be starting to click a bit in my head. Let me test it out.

So, if I put a Ethernet switch in my attic on the far side of the house, I would need to run some type of power line from the switch to a power source in the attic . I could then plug the POE camera on that side into the switch and it would work the same as if it were on the other side of the house because it would be plugged into my network. Is that correct? If so, would this be like a Cat 5 or 6 that I would use for the power cable?

I've read about the Powerline adapters, but am a little confused on them. Are they just to help expand your wifi, so a person would only use it if they had wifi cameras? What do you think of the wifi cameras? I've gone back and forth between them and the POE cameras just because they would be easier. But, I'm just not sure if I'd be wasting my money on cameras with poor visibility. Also, do you prefer the Blue Iris over the NVR?

Yes, if you put a POE Ethernet switch in your attic, it could power one or more POE cameras through standard Ethernet cables. (Make sure they are pure copper, not CCA, but that’s a rabbit hole we should avoid for now.) The switch would plug into a standard outlet like any other electrical device. But you still need to connect another ethernet port on the switch to your network. You could do this by running an Ethernet cable (which you are trying to avoid), or by using a power line adapter. The power line adapter simply plus into another standard electric outlet, and an Ethernet cable plugs into it. The power line adapter comes as a “pair,” there’s a second one that you plug in near your network’s wired connection. (Here’s another potential rabbit hole: power line adapters need to be on the same phase of your household wiring. So you might have to try a couple of different circuits near your network‘s wired connection to make it work.)

I would never depend on a WiFi camera in a critical location. Ultimately, I will have only one: a Reolink WiFi doorbell camera because it is just outside from an access point location, and because that location will also be watched by a higher quality wired camera.

On the topic of NVRs vs. Blue Iris. I’ve never owned an NVR. I do have an analog camera DVR which was tied into my network for a while, but the camera was completely inadequate for security purposes. I chose Blue Iris over an NVR due to its versatilit. I didn’t want to be locked into a particular manufacturer’s product line. In my research, I found Blue Iris had many enthusiastic users. I had even exited the whole Windows world several years earlier, but was willing to return to a Windows PC just for Blue Iris. I’m delighted I did!

 

[The Automation Guy]

I also agree that you need to check the actual roof rafter construction of the vaulted ceiling area. There is generally a gap between the vaulted ceiling and roof to run power, HVAC, insulation, etc. It may not be large enough to crawl through, but any gap can be used with fiberglass pull rods to push wires through to the non-vaulted attic sections. Edit - I should clarify by saying it is probably easier to push through a "pull cord" and then use the cord to pull the wires through. Just be sure to always include a new pull cord anytime you pull wires so that you only need to use the fiberglass rods once. After that everything can be done with the pull cords.

I honestly don't think you will have as much trouble running wires as you might think, but if it really is a problem, you can always get away with running just one or two network cables and then installing a network switch on either side of the vaulted area. All the devices on each side of the house will be connected to their appropriate network switch and you only need one or two network cables run between them to connect everything together. Hopefully that makes sense.

Fiberglass Pull Rod example (you can connect as many sets together as needed if the vaulted ceiling spans more than 30'):

3/16 in. x 33 ft. Fiberglass Wire Running Kit

Amazing deals on this 3/16In X 33Ft Fiberglass Wire Runner at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

 

[TonyR]

I cannot add much to the excellent info that preceded this post except:

Be sure to use CAT-5e/6 that is solid (not stranded) copper (not CCA/Copper Clad Aluminum) with a jacket rated for the application.

In your case I'd use a CMR (Riser) jacket for use in walls, between floors, in crawl spaces and attics.

 

[jec6613]

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, but do you have antenna or cable TV coax running through the walls? If so, use MoCA instead of anything powerline - they use the coax already in your house and are substantially more performant than anything powerline. To add even more performance, disconnect the coax from the splitter and directly connect two legs - even cheap RG58 from 70 years ago will handle multiple gigabits of speed without issue.

Another choice better than powerline is point-to-point wireless, such as Ubiquiti's AirFiber (there are others as well). Instead of the cameras connecting wirelessly, you use two devices with directional antennas on a separated frequency (usually in the 6 GHz range of WiFi 6E) forming a gigabit+ performing wireless bridge.

Only third tier would I put powerline networking, which when it works for you, works well, but it can also be a case of playing whac-a-mole trying to figure out which cheap cell charger is interfering with the signal transmission; or putting isolation devices on almost every outlet. Battery backup units are notorious for spewing EMI all over your electrical system and blocking powerline networking signals; ask anybody who's used X10 home automation how annoying it can be - and that's before looking at outage survivability and concerns if you have a backup generator (running a powerline on a generator tends to end up with a dead powerline adapters with alarming regularity as the phase varies too much compared to utility power due to the low intertia of the rotating generator). A powerline signal must have a utility-type sine wave to work, and in the event of even a brief outage have a reboot cycle with dropped data. MoCA and PtP Wi-Fi don't suffer from this, as the entire unit can be battery backed up, and even a pretty cheap UPS can hold them up for well over an hour - long enough for you to see what the heck took out the power.