How to install PoE camera with limited attic access?
- Thread starter Nixer22
- Start date
Thanks for this. It pretty much confirms by original idea that POE cameras are the way to go.No, powerline adapters are for wired cameras - it uses your existing electric lines to run the data. They work great for the problem location to run ethernet but power is close by. I have been using a few for years.
Wifi and cameras do not go together.
There are always ways if you don't want to run an ethernet cable.
You need power anyway, so go with a powerline adapter to run the date over your electric lines or use a nano-station.
Maybe you are fine now one day with wifi cams, but one day something will happen. A new device, neighbors microwave, etc.
Cameras connected to Wifi routers (whether wifi or not) are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.
Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent, especially once you start adding distance. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...
The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.
So the more cameras you add, the bigger the potential for issues.
Many people unfortunately think wifi cameras are the answer and they are not. People will say what about Ring and Nest - well that is another whole host of issues that we will not discuss here LOL, but they are not streaming 24/7, only when you pull up the app. And then we see all the people come here after that system failed them because their wifi couldn't keep up when the perp came by. For streaming 24/7 to something like an NVR or Blue Iris, forget about it if you want reliability.
This was a great test that SouthernYankee tried and posted about it here:
I did a WIFI test a while back with multiple 2MP cameras each camera was set to VBR, 15 FPS, 15 Iframe, 3072kbs, h.264. Using a WIFI analyzer I selected the least busy channel (1,6,11) on the 2.4 GHZ band and set up a separate access point. With 3 cameras in direct line of sight of the AP about 25 feet away I was able to maintain a reasonable stable network with only intermittent signal drops from the cameras. Added a 4th camera and the network became totally unstable. Also add a lot of motion to the 3 cameras caused some more network instability. More data more instability.
The cameras are nearly continuously transmitting. So any lost packet causes a retry, which cause more traffic, which causes more lost packets.
WIFI does not have a flow control, or a token to transmit. So your devices transmit any time they want, more devices more collisions.
As a side note, it is very easy to jam a WIFI network. WIFI is fine for watching the bird feed but not for home surveillance and security.
The problem is like standing in a room, with multiple people talking to you at the same time about different subjects. You need to answer each person or they repeat the question.
Test do not guess.
For a 802.11G 2.4 GHZ WIFI network the Theoretical Speed is 54Mbps (6.7MBs) real word speed is nearer to 10-29Mbps (1.25-3.6 MBs) for a single channel
And TonyR recommends this (which is the preferred way IF you want to do wifi)
The only way I'd have wireless cams is the way I have them now: a dedicated 802.11n, 2.4GHz Access Point for 3 cams, nothing else uses that AP. Its assigned channel is at the max separation from another 2.4GHz channel in the house. There is no other house near me for about 300 yards and we're separated by dense foliage and trees.
Those 3 cams are indoor, non-critical pet cams (Amcrest IP2M-841's) streaming to Blue Iris and are adequately reliable for their jobs. They take their turns losing signal/reconnecting usually about every 12 hours or so for about 20 seconds which I would not tolerate for an outdoor surveillance cam pointed at my house and/or property.
But for me, this works in my situation: dedicated AP, non-critical application and periodic, short-term video loss.... if any one of those 3 conditions can't be achieved or tolerated, then I also do not recommend using wireless cams.
Blue Iris sounds like a good option over a NVR. What would you say are any negatives to using BI instead of NVR?
I will have to do a bit more research in the adapters. They might be the easier way to go for now.
NVR is a cheap Kia, no frills, no features. Blue Iris is a Land Rover, plenty of options and features, and inexpensive.
Yep, this makes sense. But, I'm not sure there's any space to get the pull rod through as the ceiling rafters run the opposite direction that I would need to pull the cables through. Basically I would be trying to push and pull in a perpendicular direction across the rafters. And the vault starts at the top of the wall, going up to the peak on both sides, so there aren't any gaps there either. If I have to run wires, I am starting to wonder if it would be easier to pull down into the basement and try to find a way to connect down there.I also agree that you need to check the actual roof rafter construction of the vaulted ceiling area. There is generally a gap between the vaulted ceiling and roof to run power, HVAC, insulation, etc. It may not be large enough to crawl through, but any gap can be used with fiberglass pull rods to push wires through to the non-vaulted attic sections. Edit - I should clarify by saying it is probably easier to push through a "pull cord" and then use the cord to pull the wires through. Just be sure to always include a new pull cord anytime you pull wires so that you only need to use the fiberglass rods once. After that everything can be done with the pull cords.
I honestly don't think you will have as much trouble running wires as you might think, but if it really is a problem, you can always get away with running just one or two network cables and then installing a network switch on either side of the vaulted area. All the devices on each side of the house will be connected to their appropriate network switch and you only need one or two network cables run between them to connect everything together. Hopefully that makes sense.
Fiberglass Pull Rod example (you can connect as many sets together as needed if the vaulted ceiling spans more than 30'):
3/16 in. x 33 ft. Fiberglass Wire Running Kit
Amazing deals on this 3/16In X 33Ft Fiberglass Wire Runner at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.www.harborfreight.com
I was following along perfectly until I got to the 3rd paragraph. Then, my brain started to freeze up and everything that I had read previously dissipated. You all have such a high level of knowledge on this subject!I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, but do you have antenna or cable TV coax running through the walls? If so, use MoCA instead of anything powerline - they use the coax already in your house and are substantially more performant than anything powerline. To add even more performance, disconnect the coax from the splitter and directly connect two legs - even cheap RG58 from 70 years ago will handle multiple gigabits of speed without issue.
Another choice better than powerline is point-to-point wireless, such as Ubiquiti's AirFiber (there are others as well). Instead of the cameras connecting wirelessly, you use two devices with directional antennas on a separated frequency (usually in the 6 GHz range of WiFi 6E) forming a gigabit+ performing wireless bridge.
Only third tier would I put powerline networking, which when it works for you, works well, but it can also be a case of playing whac-a-mole trying to figure out which cheap cell charger is interfering with the signal transmission; or putting isolation devices on almost every outlet. Battery backup units are notorious for spewing EMI all over your electrical system and blocking powerline networking signals; ask anybody who's used X10 home automation how annoying it can be - and that's before looking at outage survivability and concerns if you have a backup generator (running a powerline on a generator tends to end up with a dead powerline adapters with alarming regularity as the phase varies too much compared to utility power due to the low intertia of the rotating generator). A powerline signal must have a utility-type sine wave to work, and in the event of even a brief outage have a reboot cycle with dropped data. MoCA and PtP Wi-Fi don't suffer from this, as the entire unit can be battery backed up, and even a pretty cheap UPS can hold them up for well over an hour - long enough for you to see what the heck took out the power.
I can say that yes, I have coax in all of the rooms, including the basement.
In response to that, and speaking only for myself, I restate the 2nd line of my signature:
"A man's got to know his limitations".
-"Dirty" Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) in "Magnum Force" 1973
Flintstone61
Known around here
Sometimes it isn't unheard of to get a low voltage guy to pull the lines where your having trouble...they have a lot of tricks up thier sleeve.
Yeah it's not free, but your time is money too....
Yeah it's not free, but your time is money too....
And all of the adapter options also cost money. That said, decent cable also costs money, though not as much. Depending on the room layout, I've done some weird runs to get things where I want them before. One trick that's cheap is to get a trim puller and route a small channel behind the trim, run either CAT6 or some OM3/OM4, then re-install the trim. Terminate to a jack at each end (permanently installed category twisted pair should be solid core copper which terminates to jacks, and especially for something that's such a pain to install you don't want to damage it over time) and you're good to go.
A huge advantage of having a PoE switch at the other end of the house with a high quality bridge (Ethernet, MoCA or Wi-Fi) back to your main stack is you can also put in a second wireless access point with a dedicated backhaul; and a second AP solves virtually all issues with iffy connections caused by the stuff in your house blocking wireless signal, so if you're on the other side of the chimney or fridge your device automatically roams to the AP with better signal. This is actually how I generally solve the issue for friends and family nowadays - Netgear Insight tri-band APs or Netgear Orbi have a dedicated, high performance, channel separated, dedicated radio wireless backhaul, and Ethernet out at the other end. In most cases, you'll see greater than gigabit speeds on the backhaul, and no funky cable runs ... the downside is, they start at about $1k/pair for Orbi, and around $700/pair for Insight APs (and with Insight you still need a router).
I can't tell for sure from your post, but have you actually gone into the attic and checked the construction? From inside the room a vaulted ceiling will generally appear to be tight up against the roof, but it rarely is. This is because a triangle is much stronger than a straight piece of wood and unless the span of the roof rafters is very short, the trusses are probably triangular in shape. If they are triangular, then there has to be some sort of gap that gets bigger as you go towards the top of the roof. The easiest way you are going to be able to tell is by a physical inspection of the construction method used, although I guess you could also measure the angle of the inside ceiling vs the outside roof. I suspect the roof has a slightly steeper angle than the ceiling (ie 25 degrees vs 20 degrees, etc).
EDIT - I should also mention that I am making the assumption that you have access to the ends of the "vaulted" ceiling attic section from the non-vaulted attic areas. I initially assumed from reading the original post that the outside roof line was continuous, but when I went back and re-read it just now, I am less sure. If the center vaulted roof sticks up higher than your non-vaulted roof sections, then it may be nearly impossible to access the vaulted attic area to run wires. If this is the case, then the basement is going to be the next easiest way to run wires.
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Starglow
Getting comfortable
Blue Iris requires a dedicated PC running 24/7. It isn't free and has licensing fee renewals if you want continuous support, plus the learning curve to get everything set up the way you want. You also need network switches with PoE support or use PoE injectors to power the cameras. An NVR is self contained with plug-N-play setup and provides PoE power for a limited number of Ethernet ports to connect cameras. You also have to use whatever software or apps that the NVR manufacturer provides for video viewing and playback which does limit flexibility options. There are other options besides Blue Iris, so do your due diligence research before you decide. IMHO, the free trial period for Blue Iris is too short and you spend most of that time figuring out how to use the software to know if you really like it or not.
Swampledge
Getting comfortable
A Blue Iris license costs less than a single good quality camera. Renewal is not necessary unless you want to continually upgrade. In over 2 years of use, I have never had a need to seek support from BI. Every device, including NVRs, has a learning curve. If it doesn’t, it’s gonna be very limited in its capabilities.
I was so impressed with Blue Iris that I purchased a license 2 days into the trial period. Two years later, no regrets.
I found Blue Iris to be far cheaper than a dedicated NVR. Partially I have a fair amount of cameras, so being able to use its advanced features to cut down on storage and power needs was a good thing.
Nowadays you don't even need a full power CPU, tiny 10W models with a $250 Pentium tiny desktop can handle a simple setup with 20-ish MP of cameras without issue, modern CPUs have come a very long way in terms of performance per Watt.
I had NVRs for many years. It was a frustrating experience.
NVRs are not Plug-n-Play and if someone tells you that, then they are flat out wrong. You still need to dial the cameras in to not get motion blur and ghosting, etc.
There is a big debate here on which is better. Personally I found the NVRs to be too clunky and not very user friendly and got to the point that I was reactive instead of proactive. I literally tested BI and knew within a few minutes it was better than any NVR I ever had.
Like literally I would go months on end not even looking at the NVR videos because the interface was too clunky and would take forever to pull up any motion from the night before. And ended up turning off the alerts because there were so many false triggers. I would only look at it if I could tell someone messed with something on my property or a neighbor asked me if my cameras caught anything.
With BI, in addition to being able to configure it such that I get notifications whenever someone gets too close to my house, I can literally in less than 30 seconds every morning do a quick review to see if there was any suspicious activity or people walking down the sidewalk at 2am. I could never do it that fast with an NVR.
Here is the search tool of all the NVR versus BI comparisons:
blue iris vs nvr ip cam site:ipcamtalk.com - Google Search
I have had whatever the NVR operating system is running on go out. TWICE. Got to buy a whole new NVR - TWICE
I have had the ethernet port go out on an NVR. Got to buy a whole new NVR.
i had the HDMI port go out on an NVR. Got to buy a whole new NVR.
Most I ever got was 2.5 years. The only working part was the HDD that I simply moved from the old NVR to the new one. I got to the point of realizing that an NVR is simply a stripped down computer, so I went to BI and never looked back. I got tired of buying a whole new unit.
So in my BI Computer, at least if the SSD goes out, I can just replace it. If the ethernet card goes out, I can just replace it. If the HDMI port goes out, I can just replace it. etc.
Personally I gave up on NVRs because I have found them to be clunky and a struggle to review clips and if a component goes out like the internet port, then you are stuck buying a new NVR whereas a computer part goes out and you replace just that component. I went to BI on a dedicated machine and haven't looked back.
Keep in mind an NVR is simply a watered down computer....once you price a capable NVR, the BI/computer combo is cheaper.
You can use the camera AI to trigger events in BI.
An NVR is way less secure on the internet than a BI computer. NVRs are rarely provided with updates to fix vulnerabilities. Your BI computer can get constant antivirus updates or Windows updates if you want to (though most of us disable them and it is still more secure than an NVR).
One of many areas where I think BI does a better job is how it displays the alerts/timeline, and I believe it is still the same as when I last ran SmartPSS and DMSS.
As we can see from this screenshot, it gives a green timeline with lines at various times to show when it triggered. Over to the right is a graphic/text representation of each trigger, but no image of the trigger.
So when I wanted to find or look at something, I needed to click each one until I found what I was looking for.
Wanna know when UPS came by in an NVR....well just start clicking on the timeline triggers till you see the UPS truck. May take awhile depending on the amount of traffic that goes by.
With BI, it gives alert thumbnails, so I can quickly scroll and find UPS way quicker than I ever could with an NVR playback timeline.
Or if you want to be notified when UPS, or FEDEX, or USPS comes by, with BI AI, you can set up an alert just for those vehicles. Good luck doing that with an NVR.
But to me, the thumbnails are invaluable. I can quickly scroll it at night and look for any activity instead of having to click each one and be like "oh that is John coming home" If I recognize the vehicle or person in the image, no need to investigate further.
NVRs are not Plug-n-Play and if someone tells you that, then they are flat out wrong. You still need to dial the cameras in to not get motion blur and ghosting, etc.
There is a big debate here on which is better. Personally I found the NVRs to be too clunky and not very user friendly and got to the point that I was reactive instead of proactive. I literally tested BI and knew within a few minutes it was better than any NVR I ever had.
Like literally I would go months on end not even looking at the NVR videos because the interface was too clunky and would take forever to pull up any motion from the night before. And ended up turning off the alerts because there were so many false triggers. I would only look at it if I could tell someone messed with something on my property or a neighbor asked me if my cameras caught anything.
With BI, in addition to being able to configure it such that I get notifications whenever someone gets too close to my house, I can literally in less than 30 seconds every morning do a quick review to see if there was any suspicious activity or people walking down the sidewalk at 2am. I could never do it that fast with an NVR.
Here is the search tool of all the NVR versus BI comparisons:
blue iris vs nvr ip cam site:ipcamtalk.com - Google Search
I have had whatever the NVR operating system is running on go out. TWICE. Got to buy a whole new NVR - TWICE
I have had the ethernet port go out on an NVR. Got to buy a whole new NVR.
i had the HDMI port go out on an NVR. Got to buy a whole new NVR.
Most I ever got was 2.5 years. The only working part was the HDD that I simply moved from the old NVR to the new one. I got to the point of realizing that an NVR is simply a stripped down computer, so I went to BI and never looked back. I got tired of buying a whole new unit.
So in my BI Computer, at least if the SSD goes out, I can just replace it. If the ethernet card goes out, I can just replace it. If the HDMI port goes out, I can just replace it. etc.
Personally I gave up on NVRs because I have found them to be clunky and a struggle to review clips and if a component goes out like the internet port, then you are stuck buying a new NVR whereas a computer part goes out and you replace just that component. I went to BI on a dedicated machine and haven't looked back.
Keep in mind an NVR is simply a watered down computer....once you price a capable NVR, the BI/computer combo is cheaper.
You can use the camera AI to trigger events in BI.
An NVR is way less secure on the internet than a BI computer. NVRs are rarely provided with updates to fix vulnerabilities. Your BI computer can get constant antivirus updates or Windows updates if you want to (though most of us disable them and it is still more secure than an NVR).
One of many areas where I think BI does a better job is how it displays the alerts/timeline, and I believe it is still the same as when I last ran SmartPSS and DMSS.
As we can see from this screenshot, it gives a green timeline with lines at various times to show when it triggered. Over to the right is a graphic/text representation of each trigger, but no image of the trigger.
So when I wanted to find or look at something, I needed to click each one until I found what I was looking for.
Wanna know when UPS came by in an NVR....well just start clicking on the timeline triggers till you see the UPS truck. May take awhile depending on the amount of traffic that goes by.
With BI, it gives alert thumbnails, so I can quickly scroll and find UPS way quicker than I ever could with an NVR playback timeline.
Or if you want to be notified when UPS, or FEDEX, or USPS comes by, with BI AI, you can set up an alert just for those vehicles. Good luck doing that with an NVR.
But to me, the thumbnails are invaluable. I can quickly scroll it at night and look for any activity instead of having to click each one and be like "oh that is John coming home" If I recognize the vehicle or person in the image, no need to investigate further.
pyspilf
Getting the hang of it
a PTP radio link with Ubiquiti, if setup properly, will work really well. I have 3 such links to cover areas of my garden where I have cameras located and where I do not care to reach with a long ethernet cable. For short distances, the cheaper units will do fine, I have three 4-5mp cameras on each, running at 15fps and there is still ample capacity on each link.
Yes, I do have a pretty good idea of the construction of the ceiling. We had the frame of the house built by a contractor, but my family and I did all the interior finish work, including putting in insulation, sheet rocking, etc., the inside of the house. My dad wired it, but he hasn't done electrical work in years so his knowledge on ethernet, IP cameras, etc., is limited. Plus, he isn't physically able to help with this particular project. That said, it's been a bit since the house was built and I can't remember all of the details of the truss construction. But, I'm going to guess that if there is any space at all, you are right and it's at the peak. The only side I have access to is the side that butts up to the garage, which is on the opposite side of the house as the router and modem. On the garage side, there is 3/4" plywood covering the end for a firewall between the garage attic and the main living section with the vaulted ceiling. However, if my thinking is correct, I actually might have figured out a solution that doesn't involve trying to go across the vaulted ceiling.
Two of the cameras will be on the end with the attic above the garage (one on the side of the house and one at the front). I can run the Cat5 through the soffit and connect both of them with a POE switch that I put in the attic. I think I will then drill a hole in the floor of the attic going down into the garage. The hole will be right next to the shared wall with the house. About a foot of the bottom of that wall is also the exterior side of the top of the basement wall. This is the only part of the basement that has a drop ceiling and I believe that I can fish the wire across the house to the area where our phone company has a switch installed for the fiber optics. I'm pretty sure that it isn't a POE switch, so I will have to put in another POE switch om there and connect it to the other nonPOE switch. Or maybe I can just switch out the nonPOE switch with a POE switch entirely??? So, if that will work, I have that side solved. I just have one other camera that is on the back of my house that is part of the walkout basement to figure out. That one will have to either come through the basement area that has a finished ceiling or some other manner to get to the same room as the other switches.
Its possible to drop the wire from attic to basement through a interior wall, then across basement (drop ceiling) to a unfinished utility room and then back up inside another interior wall to other attic?
Attic
Basement
Fiberglass rods work great for doing this with a helper(just takes a bit to find the hole)
Attic
Basement
Fiberglass rods work great for doing this with a helper(just takes a bit to find the hole)
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Starglow
Getting comfortable
Putting a PoE switch in the attic is a bad idea because they're not designed to function in extremely hot environments like an attic. If anything move it down into the garage space. Upgrade your cable to Cat6....I never run Cat5/5e anymore because they are such lower quality cables.
Not sure how fancy your house is, but if there's a straight line across the wall and have quarter round (or not) in the cathedral area, you could use a cable concealer... may not look great, painting the same color as the base board may do.
Another option, under the soffit, run rectangular cable hider against the soffit and wall or gutter. I think guys here would recommend an outdoor cat cable.
Another option, under the soffit, run rectangular cable hider against the soffit and wall or gutter. I think guys here would recommend an outdoor cat cable.
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fenderman
Staff member
- Mar 9, 2014
- 36,892
- 21,408
On the flip side the NVR maker does not even offer the option for continuous support. At some point after your purchase 6months 2years or whatever point in the time cycle you purchase they simply deem the device EOL.
With a pc based NVR you can jump around to various vms depending on your needs or mood. If it takes you more than two weeks to setup blue iris its not for you. The beauty of blue iris is that it allows a very basic setup or a complex setup depending on how much work you want to put in. Some blue iris alternatives only allow a two day trial period after you provide a credit card for auto billing...