Kevin Doe
Pulling my weight
I've got that guide pulled up on the other tab, following it now. All is going well.
Long Time Listener, First Time Caller - Dahua/Empire 4k Color Cams
- Thread starter Kevin Doe
- Start date
@Kevin Doe i see you reached out. Will reply soon
SouthernYankee
IPCT Contributor
All the cameras are way to high. On the drive way camera someone can smash the crap out of the car, all the camera will do is tell you what happened.
Mount the cameras ba 7 ft or less.
If the video can not ID the bad guy you have wasted your time and money.
Mount the cameras ba 7 ft or less.
If the video can not ID the bad guy you have wasted your time and money.
Kevin Doe
Pulling my weight
I fully appreciate your comment. I'm a bit disappointed by the views I'm capturing. I was somewhat surprised by how wide angle the cameras provide, giving less of a zoomed in view of the areas compared to my expectations. I considered going with the 3.6mm for all of the locations, but the min focal length of 17' put the camera too close to the points of entry I was wanting to get a good capture of, so I chose the 2.8mm. Of course the focal length won't change the angled view from the above, but I was thinking a zoomed in view would give for better identification.
I just went out an measured the installed height of the camera lenses.
Front Porch: 8' 6". Installed on soffit of porch ceiling. Approximately 12' from camera lens to my face while standing on the door mat.
Driveway: 11' 4". Installed on soffit eave.
Shed/Backyard: 10'. Installed on soffit eave.
Back Patio: 9' 6". Installed on wall of vinyl siding with a mounting box/plate.
Garage: 9'. Installed on drywall above man door. This one can easily be moved down 1' to an 8" height. That will put it right above the door, up against the door trim.
I ran the cables in the wall while the house was being built, prior to final grade so the final height was somewhat unknown. From an aesthetics standpoint the cameras were located to be as low as possible, yet concealed under the eaves and protected somewhat from the weather, and out of reach of any potential vandals. The concealment was critical to getting the wife's approval, and not looking strange in the neighborhood.
Any lower and all the cameras would have to be installed on either brick walls, or vinyl siding, a situation the wife would certainly not go for. I already got the "looks like a shopping mall" comment about the size of these cameras and where they're located. Unfortunately I'll be stuck with these positions, and would like to make the most of it.
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A little late now, but that is is why we strongly recommend one varifocal and test it at each location to confirm it is the correct camera and height for the location and the area we are trying to cover before buying all the cameras at once.
You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. Unless you go to a PTZ, a 4K camera to get clean IDENTIFY captures at a distance is not on the market yet...
In your case, the 4MP 5442 turret varifocal would be a lot smaller and could optically zoom it out further to flatten the angle based on the height you installed them.
So after you decide if you want IDENTIFY ability or OBSERVE/RECOGNIZE ability, then you get the appropriate camera.
To identify someone with the wide-angle 2.8mm lens that most people opt for, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings. And this includes vertical distance as well, so for someone 6 feet tall, you already lost OVER 4 feet of this IDENTIFY distance in two locations.
Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well. These cameras meet all your requirements.
One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.
So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom. You can't locate the camera too high (not on the 2nd story or above 7 feet high unless it is for overview and not Identification purposes OR it is a PTZ or strong varifocal that you can optically zoom to flatten the angle) or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered.
If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.
Personally, given what you have right now, I would use these cams at those heights as overview cams and paint them to match the house. Then supplement them with a few varifocals painted the color of the house to allow you to get the IDENTIFY shot. As @SouthernYankee said, at those heights, all you will be able to tell the police is what time something happened. That is a big investment for just that information!
If you are going to always have a car on the driveway, you need a minimum of two cameras - one on either side of the garage facing in a criss-cross pattern. Since yours is a 3-wide driveway, you probably should add a third in the middle.
You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. Unless you go to a PTZ, a 4K camera to get clean IDENTIFY captures at a distance is not on the market yet...
In your case, the 4MP 5442 turret varifocal would be a lot smaller and could optically zoom it out further to flatten the angle based on the height you installed them.
So after you decide if you want IDENTIFY ability or OBSERVE/RECOGNIZE ability, then you get the appropriate camera.
To identify someone with the wide-angle 2.8mm lens that most people opt for, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings. And this includes vertical distance as well, so for someone 6 feet tall, you already lost OVER 4 feet of this IDENTIFY distance in two locations.
Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well. These cameras meet all your requirements.
- 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
- 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
- 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
- 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
- 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
- 49225 PTZ - great auto-track PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.
One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.
So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom. You can't locate the camera too high (not on the 2nd story or above 7 feet high unless it is for overview and not Identification purposes OR it is a PTZ or strong varifocal that you can optically zoom to flatten the angle) or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered.
If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.
Personally, given what you have right now, I would use these cams at those heights as overview cams and paint them to match the house. Then supplement them with a few varifocals painted the color of the house to allow you to get the IDENTIFY shot. As @SouthernYankee said, at those heights, all you will be able to tell the police is what time something happened. That is a big investment for just that information!
If you are going to always have a car on the driveway, you need a minimum of two cameras - one on either side of the garage facing in a criss-cross pattern. Since yours is a 3-wide driveway, you probably should add a third in the middle.
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Kevin Doe
Pulling my weight
For the cameras I have, here is the chart I used for selection:
Here is why I selected them, although my logic may be flawed. All distances I measured with a laser, from point A to B, (the hypotenuse of the length and height).
Front Porch (2.8mm): Distance from lens to the head/face of an average adult is 12'. The close focus distance for the 3.6mm is 17.7', so that lens won't be able to focus at 12'. So I chose the 2.8mm. It lists identify as 27.2', so I figured I'd be good at 12'.
Driveway (2.8mm): Distance from the lens to the head/face standing at the drivers door of my car is 20'. Could have picked either, but it was within the identify range of the 2.8, so I thought I'd be able to identify at 20', and have a better overall view.
Back Porch (2.8mm): Distance from the lens to the head/face standing right at the base of the steps is 7'. Again, thought the 3.6mm would not be able to focus at that close range.
Back Yard/Shed (3.6mm): Distance to the shed is 75'. I went 3.6mm to get zoomed in further. Still well past the identify range. Maybe/probably should have picked a different camera that has a larger number focal length (6mm or 12mm).
Garage (2.8mm): Distance to the front edge of the garage is 20', so I assumed I'd be able to identify anyone within the garage.
Perhaps what I didn't realize is that these distances seem to indicate the best possible distances, not necessarily real world scenarios.
The other thing I've noticed is that the video/picture quality if I zoom into 100%, doesn't seem clear at all. Could be my settings, but not really sure how to start improving. I'm all ears for learning what to do.
Thanks everyone!
Here is why I selected them, although my logic may be flawed. All distances I measured with a laser, from point A to B, (the hypotenuse of the length and height).
Front Porch (2.8mm): Distance from lens to the head/face of an average adult is 12'. The close focus distance for the 3.6mm is 17.7', so that lens won't be able to focus at 12'. So I chose the 2.8mm. It lists identify as 27.2', so I figured I'd be good at 12'.
Driveway (2.8mm): Distance from the lens to the head/face standing at the drivers door of my car is 20'. Could have picked either, but it was within the identify range of the 2.8, so I thought I'd be able to identify at 20', and have a better overall view.
Back Porch (2.8mm): Distance from the lens to the head/face standing right at the base of the steps is 7'. Again, thought the 3.6mm would not be able to focus at that close range.
Back Yard/Shed (3.6mm): Distance to the shed is 75'. I went 3.6mm to get zoomed in further. Still well past the identify range. Maybe/probably should have picked a different camera that has a larger number focal length (6mm or 12mm).
Garage (2.8mm): Distance to the front edge of the garage is 20', so I assumed I'd be able to identify anyone within the garage.
Perhaps what I didn't realize is that these distances seem to indicate the best possible distances, not necessarily real world scenarios.
The other thing I've noticed is that the video/picture quality if I zoom into 100%, doesn't seem clear at all. Could be my settings, but not really sure how to start improving. I'm all ears for learning what to do.
Thanks everyone!
Attachments
sebastiantombs
Known around here
I don't know where you found that chart, but those distances are more than optimistic, they're unrealistic.
That chart you used is from marketing materials and is best case scenario. Real world, especially at night when we typically want them to perform, and dialed in and off auto settings, these distances are a lot less, in some cases more than half.
While it is great logic and an approach you took to all of this and more than most take when they select cameras, what your analysis didn't take into account is the height aspect associated with that distance.
If I place a camera 18 feet up on the 2nd story soffit and someone stands 1 foot away from my house, all I am seeing is the top of their head, even though according to that chart I can IDENTIFY from that distance. The distances in the chart are assuming the cameras are placed at head height.
The higher the camera is placed, the more OPTICAL zoom is needed to "flatten the angle". My PTZ on the 2nd floor gives me a great level shot of someone 200 feet away because that distance helps to flatten the angle. With a fixed cam lens, you get what you get.
If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.
There are some things you can do in the camera setup to help some, but only a little digital, not a lot. You will not be able to take an image of a car on the street and zoom in to read plates for example. Maybe a parked car under ideal conditions with some liberal guessing because you know the plate, but certainly not a moving vehicle or a plate at night of a stranger.
H264 with no code letters or + on the end.
No smart codec
CBR
8192 bitrate minimum, but try 20,000 and drop in increments of 1024 until you see a degrdation
FPS and iframes should match each other - preferable 15
Shutter at night no slower than 1/60.
Gain as low as possible
NR as low as possible
While it is great logic and an approach you took to all of this and more than most take when they select cameras, what your analysis didn't take into account is the height aspect associated with that distance.
If I place a camera 18 feet up on the 2nd story soffit and someone stands 1 foot away from my house, all I am seeing is the top of their head, even though according to that chart I can IDENTIFY from that distance. The distances in the chart are assuming the cameras are placed at head height.
The higher the camera is placed, the more OPTICAL zoom is needed to "flatten the angle". My PTZ on the 2nd floor gives me a great level shot of someone 200 feet away because that distance helps to flatten the angle. With a fixed cam lens, you get what you get.
If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.
There are some things you can do in the camera setup to help some, but only a little digital, not a lot. You will not be able to take an image of a car on the street and zoom in to read plates for example. Maybe a parked car under ideal conditions with some liberal guessing because you know the plate, but certainly not a moving vehicle or a plate at night of a stranger.
H264 with no code letters or + on the end.
No smart codec
CBR
8192 bitrate minimum, but try 20,000 and drop in increments of 1024 until you see a degrdation
FPS and iframes should match each other - preferable 15
Shutter at night no slower than 1/60.
Gain as low as possible
NR as low as possible
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Kevin Doe
Pulling my weight
I got it from this document, which looked official Dahua:
I purchased from Andy, and he also listed the same chart in his material on Amazon.
Kevin Doe
Pulling my weight
The videos posted last night were with most of the things you mentioned, (I implemented some of them already based on your recommendation). I'll try increasing bitrate. I have it set at 8192, but I will go higher. I also have set at 24FPS and iFrames. I'll try 15. Thanks.
Here is a great example post from @user8963 where he shows the difference between a 2.8mm lens capture versus optically zooming in to a pinch point with a varifocal. Keep in mind this was for a distance of around 9 feet, which is well within any DORI distance table for a 2.8mm and what most would go with, but he went with an optical zoom and equivalent focal length of about 10mm to get the close tight capture. He posted somewhere else the comparison between the two, but I can't find it. But you can see that at 9 feet on your image, you are no where near the size of this person on the screen as this person is with the varifocal.
ipcamtalk.com
Reolink: Deconstruction of a dangerous misleading youtube review "Finding the BEST 4K Security Camera NVR Package (Reolink vs Amcrest vs Swann)"
Had another visit from my friend this evening. Unfortunately he didn't try my car so he didn't come too close to the camera, but the picture is a vast improvement on the Reolink camera. Bear in mind that it is far darker in real life than it appears in the clip and this is with no IR or LED on...
alekk
Pulling my weight
LOL @Kevin Doe when you commented "Any lower and all the cameras would have to be installed on either brick walls, or vinyl siding, a situation the wife would certainly not go for."
Speaking from experience, WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is a very significant issue that has to be addressed/resolved - Happy Wifey, Happy Lifey ... ;-)
Speaking from experience, WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is a very significant issue that has to be addressed/resolved - Happy Wifey, Happy Lifey ... ;-)
sebastiantombs
Known around here
And this is the exact reason that you can't trust a manufacturer to provide truly accurate information. Do you actually believe the miles per gallon listed on a new car? Of course not.
CCTVCam
Known around here
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If you can identify somone at 27 feet with a 2.6mm lens, I want to know who your optician is.
I some how feel that whoever copied the table maybe mixed feet and metres up and then calulated the feet based on the footage amount.
As for worrying about vandalism of cameras:
1. It rarely happens and if someone wants to vandalise a camera at 8+ feet, they can always use a branch, broom handle, air rifle etc.
2. Simple way to protect them is to use 2 cameras opposing each other so each one covers the other making it impossible to attack one without being captured on the other. The point of vandalism is in most cases not revenge but to stop themselves being captured in the 1st place.
I'd personally put cameras as close to 6 feet as you can although I admit many will want to go a little higher at maybe 7 or 7ft 6. The idea here is to get a full facial view you want the camera at eye level so you're viewing straight on not down. The higher you go, the more you look down and the less and less face youc apture, expecially if a baseball or other hat is involved.
Of course the numbers are going to be exaggerated a little and are centered around ideal conditions, just like MPG ratings of a car. Under ideal conditions - nice sunny day mid afternoon with an object not moving, you might get close to 27 feet (with some digital zoom unfortunately, but would probably be more RECOGNIZE than IDENTIFY). But at night time, no way.
When do we want these cameras to perform? Typically in it's worse condition, which will be middle of the night without much light. One should get a camera that performs well in the location's worse condition. If it works well in the middle of the night with little light, it will be excellent during the day.
This camera is a great camera. I have one and it is incredible. But it is also large. Too large for most people to want to install at 6-7 feet height. I opt for turrets at that height, recognizing that this camera isn't available in a turret, so we have to go with the 4MP or 2MP. But as long as it is on the proper MP/sensor ratio and is the correct optical zoom for the area to be covered, the 4MP or 2MP will perform very well.
I use mine as an overview camera. Works very well in that situation. But I have lower cameras optically zoomed for pinch points to get the IDENTIFY pictures. Occasionally I am able to get an IDENTIFY capture from this if the person is looking straight ahead or up, but at night it has to be a lot closer.
But our long time expert Wildcat ran this camera thru its paces. He had the 3.6mm version and here is the screenshot from 40 feet, which is the supposed IDENTIFY distance for this camera with the 3.6mm lens and I think most of would agree that this is not IDENTIFY quality, even if digitally zoomed in:
When do we want these cameras to perform? Typically in it's worse condition, which will be middle of the night without much light. One should get a camera that performs well in the location's worse condition. If it works well in the middle of the night with little light, it will be excellent during the day.
This camera is a great camera. I have one and it is incredible. But it is also large. Too large for most people to want to install at 6-7 feet height. I opt for turrets at that height, recognizing that this camera isn't available in a turret, so we have to go with the 4MP or 2MP. But as long as it is on the proper MP/sensor ratio and is the correct optical zoom for the area to be covered, the 4MP or 2MP will perform very well.
I use mine as an overview camera. Works very well in that situation. But I have lower cameras optically zoomed for pinch points to get the IDENTIFY pictures. Occasionally I am able to get an IDENTIFY capture from this if the person is looking straight ahead or up, but at night it has to be a lot closer.
But our long time expert Wildcat ran this camera thru its paces. He had the 3.6mm version and here is the screenshot from 40 feet, which is the supposed IDENTIFY distance for this camera with the 3.6mm lens and I think most of would agree that this is not IDENTIFY quality, even if digitally zoomed in:
Kevin Doe
Pulling my weight
All of my cameras are now set to these video settings. You'll see example's of the daytime footage below. I'll test night time footage tonight.
All exterior cams have the same daytime exposure settings.
Super overcast today, and COLD, 27F as the high. Brrr.
Garage cam I setup differently. I only use General, since the garage door could be opened, or lights could be on/off at any time of the day.
All exterior cams have the same daytime exposure settings.
Super overcast today, and COLD, 27F as the high. Brrr.
Garage cam I setup differently. I only use General, since the garage door could be opened, or lights could be on/off at any time of the day.
They are nice clean images and great overview to see everything, but as you can see, under daylight, no way you can IDENTIFY at any distance. You get clean captures if you look up and are close to the camera, but not many perps are going to be looking up.
As I think you are starting to see, you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.
One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.
I started with four 2.8mm cameras and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens.
It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".
Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.
Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.
Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera. At 40 feet out you need a different camera.
So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.
As I think you are starting to see, you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.
One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.
I started with four 2.8mm cameras and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens.
It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".
Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.
Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.
Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera. At 40 feet out you need a different camera.
So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.
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Given you purchased a 16 channel NVR, one can assume you plan to add more cameras, so consider getting the varifocal cameras that you can then optically zoom in to the pinch points that would be identified.
And do not be limited by thinking they have to go on the house. People here have put them on fences, in birdfeeders, in the mulch looking like an accent light, someone took one of those WELCOME signs that are popular crafts now and cut out the o in the O and put a camera there. There are lot's of ways to hide these cameras.
And do not be limited by thinking they have to go on the house. People here have put them on fences, in birdfeeders, in the mulch looking like an accent light, someone took one of those WELCOME signs that are popular crafts now and cut out the o in the O and put a camera there. There are lot's of ways to hide these cameras.