New to camera systems but being specific

[Bigmak]

Hello all, hoping somebody can help me.

I looking to set up an outdoor security system for my home. After doing endless research, I can’t find what I want. Here’s a rundown:

1) I want an 8 channel nvr system that supports 4K and comes with software to monitor via Apple computers.

2) I don’t mind if it comes with a hard drive built in or not, but I would like the option to upgrade or add to the built in hard drive. Hopefully around 6-8TB of memory.

3) I need 4 ip cameras that are POE and that have some sort of PIR or thermal imaging to avoid false motion detection that occurs in many other systems.

4) System needs to be MacBook and iPhone compatible.

5) Most systems have terrible mobile apps that fail to load and fail to keep up with iOS updates/new phone models. These apps don’t seem to provide timely push notifications. My local reputable security camera company uses the mobile app “SuperLive Plus”. I would like to use this app because based on reviews it seems to be the most reliable. I would like a system that I could program to this app. To set up “SuperLive Plus” I need to fill out the following: 1) IP/DDNS/SN; 2) user name (provided by the nvr company I believe) and password. I’m not sure where to get the proper info to set up any nvr system with SuperLive plus.

6) Also I don’t want to be locked into a particular ecosystem. I would like the ability to use different cameras and upgrade down the line. So any NVR’s and IP cameras must be onvif supported.

7) I am open to any suggestions or recommendations. Thank you in advance!!

-just a noob seeking help

 

[aristobrat]

I'm an iOS/Mac user. Instead of a NVR, I use a cheap Windows PC <that runs headless like a NVR, once setup> running Blue Iris software. I do 99% of my interaction with this system through the BI iOS app, either on my iPhone or iPad. If I'm on my Mac (or any other computer), Blue Iris has an excellent web interface that makes viewing live/recorded clips easy. BI itself gets regular updates (usually one or two a month). The iOS app has been updated a few times each year.

If you go with a traditional NVR and don't want to be locked into a particular ecosystem, one thing to watch is that while most good NVRs support ONVIF, there's a higher-level of ONVIF called "PullPoint that cameras can use to signal extended events, and most NVRs don't support PullPoint from other brands. A popular example of a PullPoint feature would Dahua IVS/Hikvision Smart Events, which are advanced motion detection abilities. A Dahua NVR supports IVS with Dahua cameras, but if you plug in a Hikvision camera, it would not be able to use Smart Events... same scenario if it was a HikVision NVR and plugged in a Dahua camera. In both cases, ONVIF will allow the NVRs to use the cameras basic motion detection (ewww), but their advanced motion detection can be so much more better. Blue Iris (and most other PC-based VMS) don't have that limitation. For example, one of my cameras has PIR support built it (Dahua 1831C-PIR). Dahua exposes that feature through PullPoint, and because BI supports PullPoint, the PIR feature of that camera works OK with my Blue Iris. There is a little workaround in that situation <a one-time configuration thing I had to do within BI>, but after that it's been working great. So if you don't want to be locked into an ecosystem and want the best chance of full functionality, consider Blue Iris. I know you're prob not wanting to bring a PC into your house, but once its setup, you can disconnect the keyboard, monitor mouse (which makes its overall size a ton smaller) and then you can manage it remotely from your Mac (using an app like Microsoft Remote Desktop for Mac), not that it requires a lot of management.

You said you were looking for an outdoor security system, which I'd guess is what 99% of folks here are after. IMO, the biggest issue with outdoor stuff is that when the light goes low (i.e. dusk to dawn), it's challenging to get decent image quality, especially if something is moving (in which case it tends to blur). The cameras that do the best in low light are the Dahua Starlight and the Hikvision DarkFighter models. The low-light magic with these cameras has to do primarily with the physical size of the pixels ... they're larger than on most cameras which lets them capture more light. The way they get a larger pixel size is to use a physically bigger image sensor and to use relatively fewer pixels (2MP). Some brand-new (just announced, not out yet) models have 4MP that folks here are dying to get and review, but as of today, nobody's found an affordable model with more than 2MP that meets or beats the low-light image quality of the 2MP Starlight/Dark Fighters. And FWIW, even as good as those models are, it can still be a challenge to get a totally blur-free motion image from them... it's just that they do significantly better in low-light than just about anything else.

I haven't seen a good low-light camera that has a PIR sensor built into it. The Dahua PIR model I'm playing around with on my front porch (1831C-PIR) uses an 8MP 1/2.5" image sensor, which is mediocre in low-light at best. Honestly, it does OK in close quarters (like my front porch) where the built-in IR light can light things up, but I've previously used 2MP Starlight models on the front porch and the image quality is so much nicer (i.e. no grain/noise, less motion blur as someone walks into the IR light, etc). Hikvision came out with some low-light cameras recently that have "AI" built-in that's supposed to really increase people/vehicle recognition. Dahua just released a line that does the same, but so recently nobody's played with them yet. It seems that better advanced motion detection is how these two companies (who are the #1 and #2 brands in professional surveillance equipment) are going in regards to eliminating false motion events. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Blue Iris supports its own on-board motion detection. It's definitely not at "AI" level, but it supports some things (like advanced zone crossing) that can really help reduce false motion alerts.

Sorry to write a novel .. .I'm up really early (for east coast time) doing a server OS upgrade, so I've got some time to kill while it's doing its thing.

Also please check out the Cliff Notes document (just click on the hyperlink to the left). It's a good source of relevant info compiled from a bunch of threads. It's a big overwhelming at first, but its something you'll probably find yourself referring to a lot as you learn more.

 

[Bigmak]

Wow! I really appreciate all the details. You are now sending me down a completely different rabbit hole that will consume the next two weeks of my life.

So let me dumb this down for myself, and let me know if I’m on the right track to creating a starter kit that I can modify or add on in the future.

1) PC that supports h.264 or h.265 and the minimum requirements for blue iris
2) 8TB or 2x4TB WD Purple Surveillance hard-drive. 2TB should be enough for 30 days per camera.
3) Blue Iris software
4) POE switch
5) cat6 cables with weatherproofing
6) 4 Dahua starlight cameras. Do you have a model number you would recommend for me as the list seems too comprehensive for me to comb through? Front two cameras would be to view the front north and south gates of a 4 unit apartment building. The front is poorly lit. Rear two cameras would be to view the rear north and south gates of the building and the corresponding 4-car car-port. The rear is lit due to the car port. I’ll be contacting Andy to order these.
7) weatherproof camera mounts

Edit* 8) I have no clue what I’m doing with my router. Currently using whatever junk is provided by my ISP.

I think that should get me started.

If I pass on the PC/BI route, what is the most recommended NVR (I’m assuming Dahua) and compatible mobile app? One of the cliffnotes links led me to IP Cam Viewer and IDMSS Plus.

Once again, thank you for the lengthy answers and help. This project should get interesting and make me want to rip my hair out at some point.

 

[Walrus]

Looks like you've got a good understanding with your list. Some answers:

2. I have 3x 2MP cameras, and right now only a 3TB HDD. This gets me 2 weeks footage, but I have the bitrate set a little higher than recommended at 6144 instead of 4096. So 1TB per camera = 2 weeks, so yes 2TB per cam would give you a month. I know the purple drives are recommended, but they are stupid expensive here in Canada ($320 for 8TB). I plan on buying an 8TB WD My Book external drive and shucking it (remove the drive from the enclosure). They come with a WD Red NAS drive inside, and can be found for as low as $180 here. But if you buy a WD red drive on it's own, they are also $320-$340 here. Crazy that they do this.. that it's cheaper when inside a plastic USB enclosure. You can get them for ~$126 at times in the US from bhphotovideo. Or Best Buy has a different version, 8TB WD Easystore. Tons of people buy 4+ of these at a time for putting in home servers.

4. Camera recommendations:
IPC-HDW5231R-ZE if you want audio
IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS if you don't need audio

8. If you are using the modem/router combo that comes from your ISP, you'll likely need to put the router into bridge mode (so it just passes the internet signal through and doesn't do the routing) and purchase a better wifi router like an Asus that most recommend. You should do this regardless, as these routers provide much better wireless coverage and speed anyways.

 

[Bigmak]

So this is the list I made so far. Please let me know of any tweaks, changes, or recommendations. Obviously I would like to cut some costs, but I also don’t want equipment that’ll fail me or be outdated in the near future.

1) PC that supports h.265 and the minimum requirements for blue iris: $200
(If anyone has a specific model, plz share)

2) 8TB or 2x4TB WD Purple Surveillance hard-drive: $230

3) Blue Iris software: $60

4) POE switch: $60. **please insert a recommended model number**

5) cat6 cables with weatherproofing: $100

6) 4 Dahua starlight cameras: $680
IPC-HDW5231R-ZE

7) weatherproof camera mounts: $80

8) Asus router AC1900: $135

9) pain in my butt install and figuring out the computer stuff. It’ll probably take me a while to dial things in since I’m a little computer illiterate.

 

[mat200]

Hello all, hoping somebody can help me.

I looking to set up an outdoor security system for my home. After doing endless research, I can’t find what I want. Here’s a rundown:
..

7) I am open to any suggestions or recommendations. Thank you in advance!!

-just a noob seeking help

Welcome @Bigmak

@aristobrat and @Walrus have given some great advice! ( thanks aristobrat, walrus )

Here's my additional 0.02c

OVER cable, sooner or later you'll find that you want to add one more camera or other IoT related device and will kick yourself that you didn't pull an extra line.
( N+1 recommendation - pull at least one more cat5e line to each location )

Feel free to take some time to figure this out, it is not as simple as many of us think when we start out. It's not hard - but it does take time to do some DIY learning - thus the cliff notes, thanks to @giomania for assembling them from the numerous valued experiences and knowledge members have been sharing here.

If you decide to go the NVR route - get a 16 port model, often you want to add just one more camera.. to 9.. and then kick yourself for it. If you go Blue Iris - you can just add another 8 port PoE switch to your setup if you start with a 8 port PoE switch, so less of an issue to start with a 16+ port PoE switch if you go that route.

PLAN your placement of cameras - this is the most critical. Suggesting picking up just ONE camera that walrus mentions to start playing with and planning what you want ( see the test rig thread on how to create a test rig ).

Have fun, and do feel free to share your experiences.

btw - giomania has created a list of PoE switches - so search for that list to get ideas of which switch you may want.

 

[Bigmak]

Thank you @mat200 @aristobrat & @Walrus for all the info thus far.

 

[J Sigmo]

This is a good thread. and you've gotten excellent advice from everyone. This is a thread I'll recommend to a couple of friends I have who are also considering new or better systems.

I'm just going to second the recommendation to over-buy some things at the start, and add a few other suggestions.

You will very likely find that to get all of the coverage you want, and at resolutions that are useful, you will need more cameras than you think you might when starting.

So pulling extra cables to every location is really smart. Cable is relatively cheap, but the effort to pull it is usually a royal pain, and pulling multiple cables is just as easy as pulling one. Leave slack at the camera end, and you can add new camera locations later more easily.

Get good quality cable that uses pure copper conductors (never copper clad aluminum!). Use high quality connectors and crimp the connectors carefully.

Get a much bigger POE switch than you think you'll need. Consider getting a managed switch that allows you to segment your network or restrict some ports from internet access. As I've added cams and other IOT type gadgets, I've outgrown my router's ability to block more devices using its "Parental Controls" (it is limited to 16 devices, unfortunately!).

Consider replacing the main "c" drive in your PC with a solid state drive. The long-term video storage can be on WD Purples, but the OS Blue Iris, clip indexes, etc., can be on the SSD, and it will speed up clip retrieval, etc. I've been astounded at how much swapping out the original mechanical drives with SSDs has sped up even slow, lame old PCs of mine.

Get a good Sine Wave UPS for the system. You'll likely want it to operate for a while after a power cut, and not be susceptible to momentary glitches.

It adds up. But doing it right the first time is a bit cheaper than having to swap out devices in the future.