New user trying to figure out an affordable POE-based Blue Iris system that doesn't use companies like Dahua, Hikvision or Reolink

ipcdal

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Hi @ipcdal

I see you've hit a hot topic .. as you can see lots of passionate folks here.

Nelly's Security - used to rebrand Hikvision iirc .. now another.

They're a good vendor by most who have recommended them here, so I would just check what they are offering for a black friday deal ..
Definitely will be calling Nelly's this week when I get a chance, plus research the other brands mentioned so far. Very grateful for the help in this forum, glad I signed up! :D And as for Black Friday, yes, I will try to take advantage of any deals I can find.
 

tvbob

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I have used Samsung snv-6013 and other Samsung poe cameras (you have to have the ip configure software)
Found them cheap on ebay
 

user8963

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I totally understand your position on Sony, and in recent years I've tried to pay more attention to what a company does -- and how it handles it when wrongdoings are discovered. And I try to make more informed purchasing decisions that are in alignment with my personal values. And again, there's a whole lot of gray, I'm not criticising anyone here in this forum. We could easily turn this thread into a list of companies that we probably both agree on that have done some shady things, or downright awful things, and even then we might have a different threshold of what we're willing to tolerate personally. We could also turn this thread into a giant political discussion, and I've been trying to avoid that, especially since it's clear there are a lot of people here who are passionate about it, and after all, I'm just trying to solve what I thought was a simple problem that has some personal constraints on my end and trying to be as respectful as possible. Plus I'm also a new user here so I don't want to wade in too deep to the political side here. Although on that note, I'm happy to see there's a lot of flexibility here with what kinds of discussions you allow, so hats off to the moderators for being open minded.

As for specific things that Dahua and Hikvision have been involved in, again, I want to avoid a political thing, and I don't care what administration banned who/what/where since every administration is going to be impacted by politics and have massive inconsistencies to whatever degree (again, a politlcal discussion), but in my own research and reading a number of different sources, I can't support Dahua and Hikvision because of their connection to Uyghur profiling alone. It goes beyond that, but let's just leave it at Uyghur profiling. It doesn't help their case that they are both partly state-owned, which gives no confidence that there will be meaningful accountability and real change any time soon. Again, I'll leave the politics out of it and just focus on the humanity side of it, and reiterate this isn't an anti-China bias. There are other Chinese companies that I feel fine about personally, have shown no connection to the Uyghur situation, and are not partly state-owned.

And again, nothing is black and white. I acknowledge that there are many factors here and many folks may feel passionately on one side or the other with regard to Dahua and Hikvision. These are very serious things and emotionally charged issues. In my case, what I've researched has crossed my personal threshold and I feel pretty good about searching for different camera providers. Hope that makes sense, and I don't mean to be soft on details, but they are easy to find, and I also don't want to derail the purpose of this thread, which is just to find some darn cameras that are "affordable" (in quotes given that I know I've now eliminated the two biggest sources of objectively affordable cameras), and meet my personal specs. Respect and cheers to all here, and continued thanks for your help finding cameras!
i have to ask...

did you already pay for your sins because all the things your government did in iraq and afghanistan ? and what about all the things in guantanamo ? to my knowledge guantanamo is still alive ... obama didnt shut it down.. interesting.

do you have any connections to ugyhur ? did you even talk to one or do you base all your opinion and decisions on woke pages like IPVM ?

did you already start petitions on banning volkswagen, mercedes etc. from the US because they lied and kill your children with all their "clean" cars ?

so where do you start to avoid/cancel a company / government / .. ?
 

ipcdal

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I have used Samsung snv-6013 and other Samsung poe cameras (you have to have the ip configure software)
Found them cheap on ebay
Thank you! Hadn't thought of using ebay. I just checked out that model and found some great prices. Have you tried them with Blue Iris?
 

ipcdal

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i have to ask...

did you already pay for your sins because all the things your government did in iraq and afghanistan ? and what about all the things in guantanamo ? to my knowledge guantanamo is still alive ... obama didnt shut it down.. interesting.

do you have any connections to ugyhur ? did you even talk to one or do you base all your opinion and decisions on woke pages like IPVM ?

did you already start petitions on banning volkswagen, mercedes etc. from the US because they lied and kill your children with all their "clean" cars ?

so where do you start to avoid/cancel a company / government / .. ?
I appreciate the questions, and as you know I'm trying to avoid devolving into a political discussion, and I also don't want to attempt a personal analysis of people I don't know, and I'm just trying to figure out what cameras to buy, and I'm very appreciative of the suggestions in this thread.

But my quick answer to your questions is just that every person obviously has the choice to decide at some point in their life how much they want to know about what's going on in the world around them, and how they want to respond, and what their role and responsbility may or may not be, and I'm sure we'd both agree on that. There are countless tragic injustices going on all the time, again, as we all know, and isn't great when someone, anyone, even a random stranger you run across in an odd corner of the endless noise and rubbish of the Internet, decides they don't want to cross a particular ethical line and they decide to make a simple and perhaps minuscule decision, yes, even for something as pathetically tiny and limited in scope as choosing what cameras to buy? And since you don't know me and I don't know you, may I suggest that there are many other personal decisions we've both made in our lives that might already be in alignment with our own values and ethics, that maybe we're both good people with good intentions, and that neither of us has any appetite for virtue signaling, and lastly, that maybe we can both assume the best of each other?
 

wittaj

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Love the games people play...

From Nelly's site:

Uniview: Similarly, our Uniview line of products are not banned by the NDAA. Uniview has two lines of cameras: Prime I and Prime II. Prime II cameras do use HiSilicon chips, so these cannot be installed on government properties. But Uniview’s Prime I cameras are fully compliant with the 2019 NDAA laws. These products are not constructed with any product that appears on a federal ban list.

So Uniview practices some of the same AI that Hik and Dahua do, so is it ok to purchase the Uniview models that have a different chip in them when all the money goes to the same company anyway....

Or what about even purchasing from Nelly's since they sell cameras not on the NDAA compliant list....
 

wittaj

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wittaj

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It is fine that you have an ethical line, nobody is questioning that, but how many degrees of separation are needed between where you purchase NDAA complaint cameras and the manufacturers that use AI that you have issues with? Is it ok to purchase from Nelly's even though they sell and benefit from cameras not on that list as well? I think that is the point some of the others are making.
 
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ipcdal

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It is fine that you have an ethical line, nobody is questioning that, but how many degrees of separation are needed between where you purchase NDAA complaint cameras and the manufacturers that use AI that you have issues with? Is it ok to purchase from Nelly's even though they sell and benefit from cameras not on that list as well? I think that is the point some of the others are making.
How many degrees of separation? Personally, I love this conversation, even though it's veering off topic, I could stay up all night and it could be an incredible discussion. And frankly I like that this forum is open enough to tolerate that kind of tangential exploration without moderators locking everthing down. Again, bravo to the mods. But I do still want to keep solving my camera problem, lol. But in short, I'll just say that I believe the answer to "how many degrees of seprataion..." is that it can only ultimately be a personal decision and we all would do well to have a good look at ourselves in the mirror to ask that question. But now we're going deep, lol, and I still do want to find some cameras.... (and a dealer that I am willing to buy from, lol), all without losing my mind or getting trapped in a rabbit hole...

But I do love the discussion though...

EDIT: Apologies for the excessive use of "lol" -- it's painful to read so many lols in my response, it must be getting late.
 

mat200

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i have to ask...

did you already pay for your sins because all the things your government did in iraq and afghanistan ? and what about all the things in guantanamo ? to my knowledge guantanamo is still alive ... obama didnt shut it down.. interesting.

do you have any connections to ugyhur ? did you even talk to one or do you base all your opinion and decisions on woke pages like IPVM ?

did you already start petitions on banning volkswagen, mercedes etc. from the US because they lied and kill your children with all their "clean" cars ?

so where do you start to avoid/cancel a company / government / .. ?
devolving into tangents..

iirc some on the pandemic thread have brought up fetal cells used by some vaccine lines in their development as a reason not to get vaccinated ...
 

EMPIRETECANDY

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From Nelly's site:

Uniview: Similarly, our Uniview line of products are not banned by the NDAA. Uniview has two lines of cameras: Prime I and Prime II. Prime II cameras do use HiSilicon chips, so these cannot be installed on government properties. But Uniview’s Prime I cameras are fully compliant with the 2019 NDAA laws. These products are not constructed with any product that appears on a federal ban list.

So Uniview practices some of the same AI that Hik and Dahua do, so is it ok to purchase the Uniview models that have a different chip in them when all the money goes to the same company anyway....

Or what about even purchasing from Nelly's since they sell cameras not on the NDAA compliant list....
Bad news for you, US gov also investigate on uniview too, maybe 1-2 years later they will ban it too, this will happen on most good suppliers. Maybe have to wait a new US President come:headbang:
 

Robert hocevar

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Have you looked into Uniview or Axis? Both are very solid performers. They can be used without any cloud service. just dont connect them into your router and they will not be hacked into. Hopefully you will find something in your price range that works for you. I am curious to what you come up with. just do yourself a favor and stay away from any cameras that have a cute little OWL on them!
 

ipcdal

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Bad news for you, US gov also investigate on uniview too, maybe 1-2 years later they will ban it too, this will happen on most good suppliers. Maybe have to wait a new US President come:headbang:
That's another reason that this is tricky -- there is always the risk that any supplier is going to have some issue in the future, so I think the best I can honestly do is go with the information that I have on hand today and make the best decision I can today, and then who knows what the heck will happen tomorrow?

As for US government (or any government) banning something, as we all know there are going to be many reasons why that may be the case, and in some cases it is a far more political (or economic) response than their stated national security or human rights issues. And like you and others have indicated, the US government is clearly focused on the big obvious providers, not the smaller providers that might be just as complicit. So I think in every case, there's always more to the story, and in my situation, I do plan on getting more information than just relying on some edict.

But I do think there are some common red flags that suggest a potential problem though, such as if the company/business/OEM/developer is state-owned or has received significant backing from a state. Doesn't matter which state. In the case of Dahua and Hik, they are both known to be state-owned by China, for example, so I'll be looking at the other suppliers to see if similar relationships appear. I think the more independent a company is, the better, and also what jurisdictions the companies are in. State-owned PLUS poor jurisdiction is a definite no go for me at this point. Unfortunately, that limits me considerably though.
 

ipcdal

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Have you looked into Uniview or Axis? Both are very solid performers. They can be used without any cloud service. just dont connect them into your router and they will not be hacked into. Hopefully you will find something in your price range that works for you. I am curious to what you come up with. just do yourself a favor and stay away from any cameras that have a cute little OWL on them!
Uniview and Axis are both on my list to evaluate. Nelly's sells several Uniview models that are NDAA compliant, so yes I'm looking that those.

And on the related point someone mentioned that companies like Uniview also make products that use banned chips as well, there is no perfect solution. It may come down to the fact I have to choose something that is the lesser of two evils. It's really annoying. But anyway, I will be consolidating my notes and posting them in this thread at some point. I have a feeling I'll be making a lot of compromises...
 

ipcdal

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And honestly the more I read about some of these companies and some of their shady practices and background, the more frustrating this simple little search is becoming to me.

I'm literally almost to the point of considering rolling my own little simple camera systems and building a prototype on an Arduino-type or Raspberry Pi-type platform. I'm already starting to look at parts from places like Adafruit to see what might be possible and how much of a headache it would be. I do DIY simple projects on those kinds of platforms and it seems feasible to some degree of sanity, although a lot of hassle. Or maybe I might also look into a different way of bringing feeds into Blue Iris like using a bunch of little GoPro-type cameras and some streaming/capture devices. I know that all sounds potentially insane, and obviously a huge time sink with lots of technical challenges, but it could be a fun project I could work on with my son, and it sure won't have the typical security vulnerabilities or supply chain ethics considerations.

Anyway, this search is proving to be more difficult than I thought it would be.
 

user8963

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i have to ask again.

What are YOUR problems with dahua or hikvision ?

You write like john, must be some pandemic. You give no answers to questions and just write "blah blah blah"

So you consider to buy from a company which is controlled by the chinese government and use the same algorithms like hik/dahua ?

Only because they have 2 series, one is bad and one is good ? Have you inspect the source code of the good series to make sure that they removed all "bad" from it ? Is that your line ? if a company say "yes we are bad but in this series we removed everything bad so you can use it, anyway thanks for your money and support for doing bad things". Wow.

is that the new stupid or are you just trolling?

Here from your lovely friend john:

 

wittaj

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That is why my first post in here was "Good luck with that...." LOL

You are finding that in some form or fashion, they all participate in some form or fashion what you don't like, even if not directly as has been pointed out with Dahua and Hik.

But the fact of the matter is every camera manufacturer is advancing AI technologies because it helps eliminate false triggers. And as part of that comes the additional AI associated with that. If they are not doing it, someone else will and will take that market share.

The DIY route will be a lot of fun, but who knows what your research may find on those components. Plus the biggest hurdle will be creating a camera that can be outside in the elements and do infrared and....well a little Pi camera for inside is one thing, going outside is a whole new ballpark. GoPro doesn't have infrared, so be ready to light your house up like a nighttime NFL football game LOL.

Lessor of all evils is probably to purchase good quality cams from a 3rd party OEM vendor because then Dahua isn't getting as much as if you purchased from them directly...
 
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