Newbie question - Is it sensible to use an NVR for recording images from remote IP Cameras or should I use an alternative method?

stephenc

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Apologies in advance for asking such a simple question but I have 5 Hikvision cameras at different remote sites all with different (No-ip) IP addresses and I'd like to store any images off site.

I have iVMS-4500 and Hik-Connect on my Android phone as well as iVMS-4200 3.4.0.10 Client on my PC although it is quite complex and I'm look for a simple solution.

I thought an NVR might be the best solution but any I look at to buy online seem to be only for local cameras.

Thanks in advance for advice.
 

Teken

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Apologies in advance for asking such a simple question but I have 5 Hikvision cameras at different remote sites all with different (No-ip) IP addresses and I'd like to store any images off site.

I have iVMS-4500 and Hik-Connect on my Android phone as well as iVMS-4200 3.4.0.10 Client on my PC although it is quite complex and I'm look for a simple solution.

I thought an NVR might be the best solution but any I look at to buy online seem to be only for local cameras.

Thanks in advance for advice.
Normally the first step would be each camera would incorporate edge recording (Micro SD card) to provide redundancy and fail over. That video is than recorded to a on site NVR / DVR / PC. That same data would be mirrored to a SAN, NAS, worst case USB drive. That video for current and historic data would be relayed off site to another SAN, NAS, JBOD.

The current rage is to forward the same video data to a Cloud Hosted Services like Amazon AWS, Microsoft, Google, etc.

Since you already have Hik-Connect (assuming) privacy and security isn't top of mind just let the data get stored by Hikvision Cloud Services?? Also, you may consider using the FTP option to save still images to a local / offsite FTP server. All current hardware has the ability to direct video to eight HDD / NAS paths you define whether it be local vs remote.

Obviously, you need to configure your network or their network to allow outbound connections to a designated storage array.
 

stephenc

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Thanks for your thoughts Teken.

I do have SD cards installed in each of them set to record, but one of the annoying things about this is the low broadband speed at the properties means that playback barely works even though I've set the video and audio to substream.

Cloud storage is a bit expensive however I'm using Camac as a back up and am Ftp'ing to the service. The downside is that it's only single frame images.

My ideal solution would be to have the video uploaded from each remote site gradually and subject to internet speed to a NVR / DVR / SAN / NAS and that's my objective. (I'm already storing it on my PC).

So the question now which I probably should have asked is - NVR / DVR / SAN or NAS? I'm happy to make the purchase but which one?

Bearing in mind my setup is there any particular advantages in each one. I'm confused about their setup; is it likely I could pay someone to audit my setup and take this forward? Do such people exist? I looked at People per hour but couldn't find any experts on this.
 

Teken

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In my humble opinion the final solution will cost you something in terms of time, financial outlay, privacy, security. The largest barrier you have as stated by you is low upload bandwidth.

You run the high risk of taking down the entire network while trying to upload the video data. Obviously, you would schedule the upload during off hours say from 12:00 AM to X time. But, all of this assumes the file size is defined and known to offer you a general idea of how long It will take to upload said video.

None of that even addresses the fact you need a solid exit plan in case something terribly goes wrong. Meaning say the video backup hasn’t completed and the remote site is now open. The people onsite have no Internet because the line is saturated you’ll need someway to terminate that running process or have someone do the same.

The first time you have to explain to a client why there’s no internet or why they are tasked to kill a program. You’ll get fire and brimstone for hours assuming you don’t get fired / sued.

Testing & Validation of the above (Exit Plan) is a must and given. I have been involved in multi million dollar sites where so called professionals had no exit plan (DR) Disaster Recovery. To ones that were great on paper and met all ISO / ITIL standards but never consistently tested and validated the same!

The bulk of the DR was the lack of human follow up. Whereas the remainder is a huge reliance on automation not well tested in a Live Environment.

Think AWS failure that took down thousands of companies because a single piece of code told all servers to not fail over. Think Microsoft Azure, O365 because a single Node was stuck bringing down the entire service.

When our team completed the Post Mortem once again human error, failure to test & validate in a live environment, too much reliance on automation & recovery.

People in the NOC Team just too stupid and incompetent to read & follow the break out book, assuming it existed and was current.

So keep that in mind regardless of what I offer below.

There are several options which I’ll just state in very general terms which all have pros & cons. I won’t even bother stating the obvious of privacy & security because it’s a given.

But some of the listed options offer less risk.

Let’s just assume from easy to hard from a local solution to remote solution. You already have 1-2 of the solutions in place in terms of video storage. Edge recording from the camera and stored on the local NVR this is in place which is secure.

This doesn’t address remote viewing or relayed data off site.

Some of the Hikvision NVR’s allow personal cloud storage via Drop Box, One Drive, Google Drive.

This is easy to setup, relatively secure, and all three offer cloud storage pricing at reasonable pricing.

This would allow you to view historic video off site while having two copies from the camera / NVR.

The next solution would require a 24.7.365 computer to run one of any dozen pieces of software to either backup locally or to a offsite storage. Again Hikvision offers similar tools to accomplish this along with other 3rd party vendors.

Once the data was stored on the target PC. That 3rd party software would upload the video file to whatever destination you choose from cloud to your remote site. All this depends upon how you plan to relay the data out the network.

This also assumes you have set up the network to use Port Forwarding, VPN, DDNS, P2P, FTP, RTSP, etc.

Let’s ignore the above for now but offer a simple solution just to consider because it can be done. Whether it’s ideal and secure is up to you but it’s just an example of what’s possible and if managed could be a break fix solution.

Again upload bandwidth is key. But this in a round about way removes storage issues and having to pay for the same.

You can create a YouTube account and live stream each camera RTSP stream to this Secure (Private) account using any OBS software. This will allow you to view the live stream for 12 hours. You could bypass this time limit simply by running the live stream when needed vs running it continuously.

All this requires is the OBS software on a local 24.7.365 PC. YouTube account and configuring the IP camera RTSP.

As noted early on if you backed up the video to a local PC. Using almost any FTP client could be used to relay that video data to a offsite storage whether it be cloud vs yours. At the same time use the Live Stream if YouTube / Other Service to view different cameras.

Regardless, the consistent theme is there are ways to do X. But this comes down to what your willing to compromise in terms of real time access, quality of video, to business impact, security & privacy.

It’s going to cost you time & money somewhere but that’s up to you. Some issues just need to be addressed and done regardless - bandwidth.

One thing that Dahua has over Hikvision is most of their current cameras offer native RTMP which allows streaming directly from the camera to services like YouTube. This removes the need for a 24.7.365 PC running and OBS software. This reduces energy cost, potential break point, and dedicated network infrastructure.

As noted before you’ll need to find some kind of balance of historical video vs live viewing which hinges on upload speed. Sometimes just seeing static image clips are fine via FTP / email.

I am curious as to the current need and what these sites are?!?
 

k110

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... one of the annoying things about this is the low broadband speed at the properties means that playback barely works even though I've set the video and audio to substream....

My ideal solution would be to have the video uploaded from each remote site gradually and subject to internet speed to a NVR / DVR / SAN / NAS and that's my objective. (I'm already storing it on my PC).
That will be your problem, if the broadband speed is not sufficient for a simple playback, then capturing video to an offsite device will have the same problem. What speed do the different internet lines have? Do you have the option to create VPN tunnels between your site and the other sites? That way the traffic will be encrypted and you can add them to a NVR or NAS more easily.
 

stephenc

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Apologies for not explaining my setup initially, I wish we were a big organisation with a large budget for security but in reality we are a small family concern with 5 holiday home apartments in Belfast (N.Ireland) city centre.

We rent these apartments short term on booking.com, AirBnB, etc but unfortunately being city centre based we have a problem with bookings from prostitutes, young people who want to party with no concern for neighbours, drug trafficing and others who for whatever reason just want to cause damage.

I have a little experience setting up IP Cams having starting with the cheap Dericam, then the Foscam C1 and have at last come to realise that you only get what you pay for and have now gone for Hikvision PTZ cameras around £150 each. I have 64GB SD cards fitted but am concerned that the cameras could be simply ripped off the mountings and all the evidence go with them, hence the need for a back up. We recently had a guest who kicked the front door down as his girlfriend wouldn't let him in but the police couldn't proscecute without evidence and unfortunately the SD card in the C1 had stopped working for some reason :-(

The internet speed at the properties is only around 3mb/sec but I have just upgraded to fibre at 33mb/sec which will go live next week. Trying to run the playback on this speed is like watching paint dry. I've also just upgraded my home to fibre.

Data security shouldn't really be a problem at the properties as the only thing running at them in Netflix and the guests internet browsing through the wifi.

I have port forwarded all the settings and used no-ip (DDNS) to maintain up to date URL's starting with http://stephenc....ddns.net:xx

Thankfully, we are the end user and don't have a customer who may complain if 'asked to kill a program'. Teken, we don't really have to worry about an exit plan but I really appreciate your advice on it!

I'd thought about running a 24/7/365 PC but Hikvision installers seem to advise against it in 1 of their YouTube videos, but it remains a possibility.

Do I really need a VPN as there is nothing really private about the images if they were hacked?

And would it be an NVR or a NAS?

I've attached a screen capture of some of the footage. To be strickly clear, presently its 5 cameras at 4 different properties as 1 of them has a front and a rear entrance however I still need to purchase another 1 for the 5th property which is running a C1 which again annoyingly has stopped recording to SD Card
 

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stephenc

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I'm only a little further on with this project in that I have now upgraded all properties internet to fibre and so now have fast connection from each so that I can now comfortably view live motion using Hik-Connect.

I'm also running IVMS-4200 from my PC but this is not ideal.

I'd still really like to create a simple setup so that all data goes to a NAS at my home from all the different properties. Teken, your advice is 100%, but way too involved and professional but really appreciated.

I'm starting to think about something like a Qnap NAS which can receive the data and which my home PC can be hard wired to. Does anyone have anything like this please?

Thankfully, just before ordering one I realised that it was only for local storage.
 

Teken

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I'm only a little further on with this project in that I have now upgraded all properties internet to fibre and so now have fast connection from each so that I can now comfortably view live motion using Hik-Connect.

I'm also running IVMS-4200 from my PC but this is not ideal.

I'd still really like to create a simple setup so that all data goes to a NAS at my home from all the different properties. Teken, your advice is 100%, but way too involved and professional but really appreciated.

I'm starting to think about something like a Qnap NAS which can receive the data and which my home PC can be hard wired to. Does anyone have anything like this please?

Thankfully, just before ordering one I realised that it was only for local storage.
Congratulations on the fibre upgrade! I’m just going to throw this out there and don’t personally know the performance of such and limitations. There are some Hikvision NVR’s that have Google / Sky Drive integration.

That is a possible option to upload video data given you now have enough bandwidth. It goes without saying that’s another expense which needs to be local at each site and secured from theft and vandalism.

Other possible options assuming the LOS (Line Of Site) for each property is nearby is to set up a PtP WiFi Bridge. This would eliminate the need for each site to have a dedicated NVR sending to a cloud account.

This would allow you to store the video feed on to your proposed NAS etc. This obviously hinges upon the properties being nearby. As stated early on if there was a 24.7.365 computer on site a VPN tunnel could be made and the video could be accessed and recorded.

At some point it comes down to finding a balance of long term costs, benefit, and peace of mind. Lastly, I really loathe to recommend what I call throw away junk.

But there are tons of cheap cameras that offer (limited) cloud storage while also incorporating (Micro SD) edge recording. These cameras run from $45-XXX.XX

Maybe have a few of those throw away cameras offer you that back up and offsite video in the interim?!? Speaking for myself only I’d never use these things but know many have with great success to add to a primary system.

It gets stolen or breaks it’s not the end of the world and at $45.00 it won’t break the bank! The latest Wyze v3 offers a really low monthly subscription so I would just tack that costs to the rental!
 

stephenc

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There are some Hikvision NVR’s that have Google / Sky Drive integration.

Other possible options assuming the LOS (Line Of Site) for each property is nearby is to set up a PtP WiFi Bridge. This would eliminate the need for each site to have a dedicated NVR sending to a cloud account.

This obviously hinges upon the properties being nearby.

But there are tons of cheap cameras that offer (limited) cloud storage while also incorporating (Micro SD) edge recording. These cameras run from $45-XXX.XX
If you remember Teken, I have now invested in Hikvision cameras which I'm really happy with as well as there software. I'm also using the SD card back up in each camera, the problem is that I want to store the images / video at my home using a NAS connected to my PC.

The properties are outside LOS of eachother and have their own dedicated fibre internet connection.

I'm hoping someone else will have a similar problem and be able to advise on their successful setup.
 

Teken

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If you remember Teken, I have now invested in Hikvision cameras which I'm really happy with as well as there software. I'm also using the SD card back up in each camera, the problem is that I want to store the images / video at my home using a NAS connected to my PC.

The properties are outside LOS of eachother and have their own dedicated fibre internet connection.

I'm hoping someone else will have a similar problem and be able to advise on their successful setup.
Depending upon your comfort level you could sign up for Hikvision’s cloud service. That would provide you that offsite video which you could download to your local NAS.

I don’t know what features their cloud has to offer as it pertains to bulk down loads or scheduling. But would encourage you to ask a licenses reseller to see if a demo or live on-site review could be had.

Going this route requires no further hardware assuming the cameras have the ability to connect to the Hikvision cloud portal service. Then just tack on the monthly service & storage to the rental.
 

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Do I really need a VPN as there is nothing really private about the images if they were hacked?
...
I would like to think that part of the reason you're recording at these locations, is to know what is going on. If others can view the footage due to lack of securing access to cameras, they will know when a site is unoccupied. This would be a great time to visit the property and do "stuff". If they can view the footage, they might also have access to camera controls & shut-off the recording, allowing them to do "stuff" without leaving any video evidence.
 

stephenc

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I would like to think that part of the reason you're recording at these locations, is to know what is going on.
That is correct, a few years ago we had an attempted break in to a car parked outside. In this instance, we needed to have images / footage but unfortunately did not.
If others can view the footage due to lack of securing access to cameras, they will know when a site is unoccupied.
This is a risk we have to take, it's more important to have the cameras there even as a deterent.
 

SpacemanSpiff

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The VPN (server) would be configured on each router of the vacation sites that have cameras. This, of course, would be dependent on the respective router having the feature available. You would then acccess each site using a VPN client which can be installed on a home PC, mobile phone, laptop, etc
 

stephenc

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The VPN (server) would be configured on each router of the vacation sites that have cameras. This, of course, would be dependent on the respective router having the feature available. You would then acccess each site using a VPN client which can be installed on a home PC, mobile phone, laptop, etc
This all sounds a bit complex. I have a VPN on my phone so that when on holiday I can access BBC from the UK but have never used it as a tunnel before. Would I need a separate VPN account for each property?
 

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I just configured an Netgear router for VPN access. It generated a file that I simply imported after I installed the VPN vclient.

I have yet to have access multiple sites... yet. But it is my understanding that if your routers use, say, open VPN as an example. You could have one client with multiple profiles that represent each site. Others have reported that the have an icon for each site that they simply tap on in order to connect.
 

mat200

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We rent these apartments short term on booking.com, AirBnB, etc but unfortunately being city centre based we have a problem with bookings from prostitutes, young people who want to party with no concern for neighbours, drug trafficing and others who for whatever reason just want to cause damage.

..

I have port forwarded all the settings and used no-ip (DDNS) to maintain up to date URL's starting with http://stephenc....ddns.net:xx
..

Do I really need a VPN as there is nothing really private about the images if they were hacked?
..
Hi @stephenc

Port Forwarding = sooner or later you will have trouble with that. Just a question of time ..

Cameras in rentals .. also a question of legalities .. do do check that

Renting short term apartments for good money and expecting customers to be quiet and not celebratory is unwise. Many people plan to spend money on travel to celebrate. This is the name of the game you have joined. You are not running a senior center. Expect your customers to want to celebrate. Welcome to the game of short term rentals.

If you care about your neighbors you would only do long term rentals where you have incentives for renters to be good to the neighbors ( decent rental prices, stable renters ). That's the business plan if you want stable renters and less issues with neighbors - but you probably know that already.

In terms of cameras - you will need to invest some time and money to get a good decent setup. And you will need to check with laywers in your area about what is legal.
 

stephenc

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Hi @stephenc
Cameras in rentals .. also a question of legalities .. do do check that
I have checked this with the police a number of years ago. They think it's a great idea to deter prostitution but advise simply that the camera must only be pointed in towards the entrance and not onto the street.

Hi @stephenc

Renting short term apartments for good money and expecting customers to be quiet and not celebratory is unwise. Many people plan to spend money on travel to celebrate. This is the name of the game you have joined. You are not running a senior center. Expect your customers to want to celebrate. Welcome to the game of short term rentals.
I would respectfully disagree. Guests are made aware of rules before booking and have the choice but we will not accept prostitutes or guests who come to party and disturb the neighbourhood. I'm in this game nearly 15 years and am not a newbie to it which you seem to suggest.

Hi @stephenc

If you care about your neighbors you would only do long term rentals where you have incentives for renters to be good to the neighbors ( decent rental prices, stable renters ). That's the business plan if you want stable renters and less issues with neighbors - but you probably know that already.
Again, I would disagree. Our property neighbours have my mobile phone number and know to ring in the middle of the night if there is a problem (which they have unfortunately had to do, albeit rarely)

Hi @stephenc
In terms of cameras - you will need to invest some time and money to get a good decent setup. And you will need to check with laywers in your area about what is legal.
I've spent nearly a thousand pounds on cameras and am now trying to learn how to create the right setup, but it's a steep learning curve and unfortunately I can't find a professional to do it for me.
 

mat200

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I would respectfully disagree. Guests are made aware of rules before booking and have the choice but we will not accept prostitutes or guests who come to party and disturb the neighbourhood. I'm in this game nearly 15 years and am not a newbie to it which you seem to suggest.
..
Again, I would disagree. Our property neighbours have my mobile phone number and know to ring in the middle of the night if there is a problem (which they have unfortunately had to do, albeit rarely)
..
HI @stephenc

The Data on short term rentals and guests wanting to celebrate in short term rentals is valid .. numerous cities have been sharing the data and attempting to restrict short term rentals.

You may wish to ignore this, and that is fine .. but the facts are clear that the short term rental market results in issues in neighborhoods vs longer term rentals.
 
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