Pandemic threat? Anyone else concerned?

[Frankenscript]

Anybody know if Texas is still using the freaky case definition that started a month or two ago, where any confirmed diagnosed person was a case, anyone living with them was a case, and maybe neighbors were also cases? For gosh sakes, I'm expecting if you heard the word Coronavirus on the radio you could become a case by their weird system. I suspect this may have been misunderstood at the time of reporting (not exactly fake news, just misunderstood criteria).

My concern around both the Texas case definitions, and the screw ups in inappropriately combining PCR and antibody test results, undermines public confidence in the health care response which is already shaky for some good reasons. I wouldn't expect Texas to artificially inflate case numbers because they are part of the "pro-opening" cluster of states. However, I would not rule out them being part of a larger play to undermine confidence in the system. This is pretty far into tinfoil hat territory; I'm not saying I believe this, but I am trying to understand it.

The best I could do is this document:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiT0MXfn9zqAhVcgnIEHQUiCDIQFjAAegQIBBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dshs.state.tx.us%2Fcoronavirus%2Fdocs%2FDSHS-COVID19CaseDefinitionandInvestigationPrioritizationGuidance.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3w1gx6jwpHw_wfmZcpO9Q5

Which actually DOES NOT say all these esoteric things are cases, just provides epidemiological and clinical linkage criteria. So if you are in a hotspot and have COVID symptoms with no test to back it up you are considered a probable (but NOT confirmed) case. This is appropriate. I'm trying to figure out how these criteria got turned into reporting saying essentially if you lived with or next to someone with COVID-19 you were considered a case (in absence of symptoms).

 

[Arjun]

"...Multiple COVID Vaccines could be Made in India..."

 

[Ssayer]

 

[erkme73]

I take it those with smart-ass replies aren't struggling to feed their families or pay their rent or losing their small business to the lockdowns.

Your idea of freedom and liberty is far from mine. Hiding in your house at the direction of single-minded partisans is bullshit. There are more things going on in this country, for most people, than covid and blm riots.

The job of elected leaders is to persuade me of its worth (wearing a mask), not order me to do it.

I was at the VA recently for a blood draw. They're big on compliance. They gave me a mask to wear while I was there. Next is a touch screen kiosk to sign in. Next is a dozen health care folks in masks and gloves. But most have their masks pulled down so they can talk to each other and they need to be close because it's noisy. Their gloves are wiping their sweaty faces and touching everything including me. With bare hands they wash them first and after.

It's difficult to see how that policy is stopping anything from spreading.

Masks:

Wearing Masks – A Sledgehammer to Health - LewRockwell

They did it this time. A group of men and women executed a well thought out plan to drive the health of the human race into the toilet. Attacking the very basics of life, they have deprived people, en mass, of the life/health-giving rays of the sun (depressing vitamin D levels) with their...

bit.ly

A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers | BMJ Open

Big fan of Lew Rockwell and libertarian principles / Austrian economics....

Forgive the late reply. I just stumbled upon your post. In a perfect world, I think we'd have an educated (or educatable?) constituency that is open-minded enough to understand the science. We'd also have science that doesn't appear to change seemingly weekly. We'd have elected leaders and their subordinates that were effective communicators, and on top of the latest facts. We'd have a population not only willing to listen/learn, but able to do so (no competing interests). We'd have little distraction or other counterproductive theories to detract from the true science (again, whatever it may actually be).

The reality is, for every person who is interested in the subject, researched in it, has time to pay attention, and stays current with the latest science, there are 100,000 others who simply don't give a shit - or have their own agendas. Trust me, I get diversity of thought and individualism - I think it is essential in a healthy republic (as is the need for open dialog from ALL sides). But if anything has been proven in the last 6 months, we are far from perfect.

Put it bluntly, people, as a whole, are too stupid, too apathetic, and too ignorant to be trusted not to make the decision to wear masks (or wear them correctly). I include many of my own acquaintances in that description. Would I feel differently if my wife weren't directly affected by the dozens of critically ill/dying patients - many of whom were too [FILL IN THE BLANK] to wear a mask to prevent getting infected? Probably. I'm not saying masks are the solution, but even if they decrease the infection rate by just a small amount, it will decrease the risk to healthcare workers. They are desperate to slow the flood of patients, and those who aren't involved in the medical system at those locations simply do not grasp that desperation and fear.

It kills me to read my own writing, as these are many of the same justifications used in socialism to bring people into a single-line of thinking. But, being directly and personally affected by people's selfishness and lack of responsibility - which puts my wife, and my family at much greater risk - does tend to tilt the scales a bit.

 

[Q™]

people, as a whole, are too stupid, too apathetic, and too ignorant to be trusted not to make the decision to wear masks (or wear them correctly)

As I see it, wearing a mask has nothing to do with being afraid. As not wearing a mask has nothing to do with being brave. Rather, wearing a mask has to do with common sense, and a sense of personal responsibility towards our families, of responsibility towards the people we work with, and of responsibility towards our country.

Everything else is simply political bullshit.

 

[erkme73]

As I see it, wearing a mask has nothing to do with being afraid. As not wearing a mask has to do with being brave. Rather, wearing a mask has to do with common sense, and a sense of personal responsibility towards our families, of responsibility towards the people we work with, and of responsibility towards our country.

Everything else is simply political bullshit.

I agree wholeheartedly. I just think most people lack common sense, and all sense of responsibility.

 

[mat200]

Notes:

Don Milton: States he would not get on a plane right now... has worked prior with airline cabin flow... problem with airplane cabin airflow, hot air from bodies want to go up, planes vent air down - resulting in airflow going sideways.

Monica Gandhi: Covers how masks protect the wearer. you get less germs thus less severe sickness, lowest death rates with higher compliance with masking.
( don't use valve masks )
Would fly with a mask

Michael Edmond: PPE concerned due to supply chain disruption about having enough supply for N95 and medical mask. Thus added face shields ... no national standards on face shields, continues to be a problem.
( video covers lots of details on pros / cons .. ) Face shield + face mask useful to protect wearer. Face shield helps protect your mask ( thus good for hospitals which need to extend PPE resources )
Have flown recently with a N95 mask.. one flight he was the only one on board.

Aerosols definition - Medical and Industrial Hygiene has different definitions - thus some conversations of "droplet / splash" vs aerosol gets complex.
From a laypersons term we would consider this bugger which hangs in the air, can be inhaled, can be circulated by a HVAC unit as aerosol.
Masks will not completely reduce transmission, but is a part of the solution.


Covid-19: How the Virus Gets in and How to Block It: Aerosols, Droplets, Masks, Face Shields, & More
UCSF School of Medicine

In this Covid-19 Medical Grand Rounds (July 16, 2020), three world experts discuss a variety of issues surrounding how the coronavirus moves from person to person, how best to block viral spread, and the potential that mask-wearing may not only prevent infection but also lead to a milder clinical course. The questions regarding aerosol vs. droplet transmission and the value of wearing masks and/or face shields are central to formulating public health strategies as well as to informing the personal decisions that each of us makes every day. The session is hosted by UCSF Department of Medicine chair Bob Wachter

Don Milton, Professor, Environmental & Occupational Health, University of Maryland School of Public Health

Monica Gandhi, UCSF Professor of Medicine; Associate Chief of Division of HIV, Infectious Diseases, and Global Medicine at ZSFG; Director of the UCSF Center for AIDS Research; and Medical Director of the HIV Clinic, Ward 86, ZSFG

Michael Edmond, Chief Quality Officer and Associate Chief Medical Officer, University of Iowa Health Care; Professor of Medicine, Division of Infectious Diseases, University of Iowa Carver College of Medicine

 

[mat200]

Oh and on the topic of masks.. this came in today

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
We are United in our effort to defeat the Invisible China Virus, and many people say that it is Patriotic to wear a face mask when you can’t socially distance. There is nobody more Patriotic than me, your favorite President!

 

[mat200]

Good presentation on cheap good enough self testing frequently to drop the R value down

Question really should perhaps be: Who is infectious and who is not?

Coronavirus Pandemic Update 98: At Home COVID-19 Testing - A Possible Breakthrough
Jul 20, 2020

 

[Q™]

on the topic of masks.. this came in today

One doesn't recognize the really important moments in one's life until it's too late.

 

[BobRegnar]

Big fan of Lew Rockwell and libertarian principles / Austrian economics....

Forgive the late reply. I just stumbled upon your post. In a perfect world, I think we'd have an educated (or educatable?) constituency that is open-minded enough to understand the science. We'd also have science that doesn't appear to change seemingly weekly. We'd have elected leaders and their subordinates that were effective communicators, and on top of the latest facts. We'd have a population not only willing to listen/learn, but able to do so (no competing interests). We'd have little distraction or other counterproductive theories to detract from the true science (again, whatever it may actually be).

The reality is, for every person who is interested in the subject, researched in it, has time to pay attention, and stays current with the latest science, there are 100,000 others who simply don't give a shit - or have their own agendas. Trust me, I get diversity of thought and individualism - I think it is essential in a healthy republic (as is the need for open dialog from ALL sides). But if anything has been proven in the last 6 months, we are far from perfect.

Put it bluntly, people, as a whole, are too stupid, too apathetic, and too ignorant to be trusted not to make the decision to wear masks (or wear them correctly). I include many of my own acquaintances in that description. Would I feel differently if my wife weren't directly affected by the dozens of critically ill/dying patients - many of whom were too [FILL IN THE BLANK] to wear a mask to prevent getting infected? Probably. I'm not saying masks are the solution, but even if they decrease the infection rate by just a small amount, it will decrease the risk to healthcare workers. They are desperate to slow the flood of patients, and those who aren't involved in the medical system at those locations simply do not grasp that desperation and fear.

It kills me to read my own writing, as these are many of the same justifications used in socialism to bring people into a single-line of thinking. But, being directly and personally affected by people's selfishness and lack of responsibility - which puts my wife, and my family at much greater risk - does tend to tilt the scales a bit.

"It kills me to read my own writing, as these are many of the same justifications used in socialism to bring people into a single-line of thinking. "

(...and a socialist with a gun is a communist dictator wannabe. )

If there was as much effort put into finding safe ways to get people back to work and school and normal life, as there is put into making them behave like puppets we would see more progress toward what everyone wants.

erkme73, if I was going to be in your wife's orbit I would wear a mask for your peace of mind, but everyone who gets sick is not sick because they were too stupid, careless or partisan to wear a mask.
Why do folks feel the need to denigrate anyone who questions the faulty logic behind the edict? Another question.

 

[Q™]

Why do folks feel the need to denigrate anyone who questions the faulty logic behind the edict

This is an excellent question.

 

[erkme73]

"It kills me to read my own writing, as these are many of the same justifications used in socialism to bring people into a single-line of thinking. "

(...and a socialist with a gun is a communist dictator wannabe. )

If there was as much effort put into finding safe ways to get people back to work and school and normal life, as there is put into making them behave like puppets we would see more progress toward what everyone wants.

erkme73, if I was going to be in your wife's orbit I would wear a mask for your peace of mind, but everyone who gets sick is not sick because they were too stupid, careless or partisan to wear a mask.
Why do folks feel the need to denigrate anyone who questions the faulty logic behind the edict? Another question.

Differing viewpoints are fine. But when someone's viewpoint is exercised, and it directly increases my family's risk, it is no longer a viewpoint. It is a tangible threat and should be addressed accordingly.

 

[Q™]

Differing viewpoints are fine. But when someone's viewpoint is exercised, and it directly increases my family's risk, it is no longer a viewpoint. It is a tangible threat and should be addressed accordingly.

Thank you erkme73.

With all this political animosity, recrimination, and vilification, it's hard to believe that that America has long considered itself a "Christian" nation.

A Christian is someone whose behavior and heart reflects Jesus Christ. That's what it means to be a Christian. And applying Christian values is to be the intention of every follower of Jesus Christ. That’s why Paul says, "Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you" (Philippians 4:9)

Did Trump Retweet Video Saying Only Good Democrats are Dead Ones?

The original comment was made by a public official in New Mexico.

www.snopes.com

 

[Oceanslider]

 

[erkme73]

Thank you erkme73.

With all this political animosity, recrimination, and vilification, it's hard to believe that that America has long considered itself a "Christian" nation.

Did Trump Retweet Video Saying Only Good Democrats are Dead Ones?

The original comment was made by a public official in New Mexico.

www.snopes.com

View attachment 66815

And if I had voted for Trump to be my Christian leader, pastor, or other moral pillar, I think I would have been a fool. It'd be nice if the CEO of our country did reflect those principles, but I'm too pragmatic to expect perfection. Give me a business man who knows how to shake things up, someone who's not a politician, that can end the faux two-party system and right this ship, and I don't care about his moral or ethical deficiencies.

As a person, I do not like Trump. I think he's grandiose, braggadocios, and has a rather primitive vocabulary that makes him come across as aloof. He's not likely someone I'd choose to spend time with, or call a friend. BUT, he gets shit done. I don't care that he's uncouth, uncivilized, unpolished, and abrasive. When someone has such unappealing personal traits, and still has great support, it is an indictment of the political system. Personally, I'm so fed up with proper protocol, flowery words, and bullshit pep-talks from Obama/Bush politicians, that I actually enjoy the crassness of Trump.

It's like the little kid who's been picked on for so long, silently sulking away - and he finally grows a pair and beats the shit out of everyone. To quote Michael Moore (not someone I agree with on virtually anything) - Trump is a human hand grenade lobbed into DC by Americans who want to blow up the establishment system. Personally, I think he's doing a FANTASTIC job at what I hired him for...

 

[Frankenscript]

That's great @Oceanslider , quote one of Europe's most notable failures in a context that suggests we should to the same thing. That's a bit perplexing.

First let's review the number: Sweden is a small country with about 10M people; scale up their 5646 deaths (per today's Worldometers) to our 330M population and you get about 180K deaths compared to our current 144k or so. So, they had about 20% more deaths than us.

And, while they didn't do a government-directed lockdown, the Swedish people did all manner of things on a voluntary basis to promote distancing. They as a people are good at conforming for the greater social good. Here is an article from early April about what they were doing to reduce infections:

https://www.thelocal.se/20200401/what-you-need-to-know-about-swedens-new-social-distancing-guidelines

And keep in mind some of this was compulsory, such as distancing in bars:

Sweden is shutting down bars and restaurants where people defied social distancing guidelines

Swedish officials said that five bars and restaurants in Stockholm ignored social distancing guidelines over the weekend.

www.businessinsider.com

Here's an article from June about the problems with their voluntary approach:

Five Problems With the Swedish Approach to COVID-19 | Think Global Health

As herd immunity remains elusive, Sweden’s experience seems to be a cautionary tale—Norway and Denmark have fared better

www.thinkglobalhealth.org

Remember, you couldn't travel freely for a while there. It wasn't all up to people's good nature:

Startpage

www.government.se

But their approach did ultimately bring it under control, this recent article describes the distancing measures in good detail:

Swedish Covid Infections Drop After Steady Distancing Patterns

The rate of Covid-19 infections is declining in Sweden, which health authorities said is thanks to citizens voluntarily adhering to social distancing guidelines.

www.bloomberg.com

Sweden isn't the success story of the region; other nordic nations that did more and locked down had much lower mortality rates.

Meanwhile in the US we have people trying to assert that being forced to wear a mask somehow violates their civil rights:



Europeans by and large just wear them because it is the right thing to do, as do most Asian folks. So, I'm not sure where you are going with you post. Are you suggesting we just let the virus run its course? Bad call.

We'd die in the millions in the US.

 

[bigredfish]

Dammit I have to agree with @Frankenscript again, geesh

Note deaths per million population. Sweden isn’t a poster child by any stretch.

 

[mat200]

FYI - Nordic countries historically have evolved to better handle FLUs... notice they are not "kissy kissy" folks... so there's more going on in cultural differences with Nordic countries and others.

 

[mat200]

..
If there was as much effort put into finding safe ways to get people back to work and school and normal life, as there is put into making them behave like puppets we would see more progress toward what everyone wants.

erkme73, if I was going to be in your wife's orbit I would wear a mask for your peace of mind, but everyone who gets sick is not sick because they were too stupid, careless or partisan to wear a mask.
Why do folks feel the need to denigrate anyone who questions the faulty logic behind the edict? Another question.

HI @BobRegnar

Q1) "If there was as much effort put into finding safe ways to get people back to work and school and normal life, .."
A1) There is no back to normal life with the pandemic alive...

Q2) "If there was as much effort put into finding safe ways to get people back to work and school and normal life, .."
A2) That is what most people are attempting to do, and what I am attempting to pass along here... wish you and others who are believing the bull / false stories would pay attention to the facts and science and help get us back to a closer normal life.

Q3) "Why do folks feel the need to denigrate anyone who questions the faulty logic behind the edict? .."
A3) Just like we get tried of answering new people's questions over and over again on security cameras, thus we made the cliff notes. Same with the references I have provided for you. Think of those as Cliff Notes to the pandemic.
( btw I am not denigrating you per se atm, but pointing out you have been sold falsehoods.. up to you to decide if you want to double down or review the data and re-evaluate. )

mat200,

I didn't ask about that one because it is an opinion piece, albeit by a medical professional. You can call it bull if you want. I asked about the Hanoi mask study there's a link to that as well.

You did say the study was bull so I assumed you'd read it. And I thought you said you were serious.

OSHA? Oh, I don't know, why did OSHA let all those nursing homes kill so many people?

So @BobRegnar

What is your goal? More suffering for the US economy and people?

I've read and watched the data since the start of this thread, paid attention to who got it right and who got it wrong. You can gain from my experience and knowledge I have gained in the process OR you can continue to have the wool pulled over your eyes by Charlatans, Con artists, Fake News folks, Idiots, agents of the CCP PRC China,.. up to you.

Question comes down to: Do you want to hurt the USA and help PRC China in this economic cold war or help the USA win this one?

Note: Masks/face coverings for Pandemic control measures is not and should not ever have been called a political issue.