Recommendations for home video security system

[SeattleMike]

(I apologize if this isn't the correct forum for this question.)

I'm looking for recommendations for a home surveillance system using 4 or 5 cameras, mostly for outside use.

I started to assemble a system using a PC with Zoneminder and a couple of different wifi cameras (Amcrest 841 and a Foscam R2, plus a couple of Wyze Cams (bought mostly for experimentation).

My concern is that I'm going to end up swamping my wifi and slowing it down, reducing the performance for other uses (browsing, streaming, etc).

The Zoneminder system is okay, but the cameras I'm testing with aren't really suitable for outdoor use. (Again, a lot of this gear was bought for familiarization and learning, so they can be discarded or replaced).

The PC is an older box that seems to sort-of be keeping up with the load of a few cameras, but it has some drawbacks. Limited memory and the CPU is several years old and probably underpowered.

Also for testing/learning, I got a little Kodi-style Android box and looked at using tinyCam as the base of a system,. It seems to work pretty well but again, I'm concerned about swamping my wifi. tinyCam actually works nicely, but I've had trouble connecting PoE cams to it.

So, after a bunch of fiddling around, I'm wondering if it might be better to just drop some money on a pre-made system from Amcrest or some other manufacturer.

I'd prefer an NVR-type system that either comes with some cameras and/or that can also have other off-brand cameras connected to it.

I could run PoE cameras even though the wiring will be a pain, but I'm starting to think that might be the best solution in the long run. I like the simplicity of wifi but it has issues too.

I'd want to be able to view the cameras remotely as well as cast the feeds to a TV in the living room.

There are so many options, I don't know what to do at this point.

So....if I was starting from scratch and wanted to place 4 or 5 cameras around the outside of my home, what would people here recommend? Go wifi, go PoE, a mix of the two, or....? Buy a pre-configured kit, build from scratch, or...?

 

[bigredfish]

Just say No to Wifi
PoE
Build from scratch using Blue Iris and Dahua or HiK cameras.

 

[TonyR]

+1^^.

Welcome to IPCT!

Be sure to read the Wiki up at the top and spend LOTS of time in the Cliff Notes before buying and mounting cams or buying a PC for Blue Iris.

 

[aristobrat]

x2 on the two posts above.

The cameras that do the best for the buck outside when the light gets low are the Dahua Starlight and Hikvision Dark Fighter models. They use better (bigger, back illuminated) image sensors that aren’t used by consumer-grade camera companies that package stuff together in kits.

 

[SeattleMike]

Wow, thank you for all the answers and information, looks like I have some reading to do, lol.

Let me read all the recommended pages and stuff and mull some of this over, and then I'm sure I'll be back with questions.

I'm still undecided in terms of whether to go with an NVR versus a PC running Blue Iris but maybe after digesting all this info I'll have a better feel for it. I'm not unhappy with Zoneminder but it's got some sharp edges, so to speak.

While I read through all this stuff, would you all give me some feedback on these questions:

1. The PC I'm using as a test bed has an Intel Core i5-2300 CPU @ 2.80GHz × 4 with 6Gb of memory; I'm not sure if this is hefty enough to run Blue Iris properly. (??) I see some info in the Cliff Notes section so maybe that'll clear that up.
   
   
2. Why the recommendations to avoid wifi? Is it due to loading the network, reliability, or some other issue?
   
   
3. I've seen Blue Iris recommended widely everywhere; are there reasons people don't recommend Zoneminder? Like I said, I have it running and it seems to be okay (it does load the PC down a bit but that may be due to lackluster PC hardware and not ZM specifically). It does work and the "ZM Ninja" app seems to add a lot of functionality.
   
   
4. I'm OS agnostic, Linux or Windows makes no difference to me, but I'm hesitant to run Windows 10 anywhere for various reasons. Maybe Win 7 or 8, but Window 10 is something I'd like to avoid if possible- so maybe an NVR is a better alternative? I don't know.
   
   
5. Blue Iris versus an NVR- each route seems to have their own pluses and minuses. I definitely want to be able to have text/SMS alerts sent to my phone and I don't know if either is better for that.
   
   
6. If I was going to get an NVR, what model(s) would you all suggest? I won't say that price isn't a consideration, but I'm willing to spend a reasonable amount to get solid gear.

 

[SouthernYankee]

My standard welcome to the forum message.

Please read the cliff notes and other items in the wiki. The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) in the wiki also.

Quick start
1) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras or ICPT Night eye cameras (https://store.ipcamtalk.com/) if you need good low light cameras.
2) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
3) Do not use wifi cameras.
4) Do not use cloud storage
5) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
6) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
7) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
8) Do not use reolink, ring, nest cameras (they are junk)
9) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
10) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
11) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2

Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
Test do not guess

 

[SouthernYankee]

1) that CPU will work for a start on BI4, it will make for a good learning and test system. But an upgrade to BI5 is coming that requires windows 10 64 bit.
2) wifi is not suitable for a security system. It can be blocked very easily.
3)
4) windows 7 will work on BI4, but the new version is BI5
5) search the forums this has been asked a 100 time
6) get an NVR that is the same manufacture as your cameras, Get one that supports more cameras than you think you will need,

 

[mat200]

..

1. Blue Iris versus an NVR- each route seems to have their own pluses and minuses. I definitely want to be able to have text/SMS alerts sent to my phone and I don't know if either is better for that.
   

Welcome @SeattleMike

We've got a lot of good threads on Blue Iris vs a NVR, as well as reviews on various NVRs, and even other VMS software posts.

If you plan to run various cameras from different OEMs then Blue Iris will be a good option and we have a lot of members who really like that platform. I do think a gen-2 intel chip is a bit dated for Blue Iris, so do look at the various threads on recommended hardware for it. A lot of members like the used i5/i7 PC route, go for at least a 4th gen imho and look for a system which already has windows OS.

If you want to go the NVR route you'll want to match the OEM of the cameras with the OEM of the NVR.

 

[aristobrat]

If you want to go the NVR route you'll want to match the OEM of the cameras with the OEM of the NVR.

@SeattleMike, this is something to consider.

While ONVIF makes it possible to mix-and-match camera brands and have the basics work (ie if you buy a Dahua NVR, it can record video from a Hikvision camera), not all camera features work when the DVR brand is different from the camera brand. IMO, the biggest example of this is the advanced motion detection feature that Dahua/Hik puts in most of their cameras. Dahua calls it IVS and Hikvision calls it Smart Events. This level of motion detection usually has far fewer false alarms than basic motion detection. Anyhow, the advanced motion detection requires that the NVR brand matches the camera brand.

Most NVRs have minimal processing power and do not have enough omph to do their own motion detection. They rely on each camera to do its own motion detection and notify the NVR when motion is detected. This means that for each camera, the motion detection is only as good as what was built into the camera.

Since BI runs on PCs with a lot more processing power, Blue Iris can do its own motion detecting, and it has some pretty robust capabilities. Moving the responsibility of motion detection from the camera to Blue Iris means you get the same motion detection capabilities across all of your cameras, and capabilities can be refined and expanded through future BI releases (which usually come out a few times a month).

Blue Iris recently had an update that added the ability to send motion detection alerts over to other services for further analysis (AI). I think Sentry is the only service currently, but there are others planned. Be interesting to see how this feature works out, but I think it’s a good example of the flexibility that a PC NVR has over a traditional NVR (that is unlikely ever to see a software update that adds a major new feature).

 

[SeattleMike]

I admit, I'm kinda torn between going with an NVR and running Blue Iris on a PC.

The NVR approach seems like it's the easiest and the least amount of trouble to get up and running. The price of the NVR kits is pretty reasonable too. They're compact and easy to hide or secure. This is something I'm not overly concerned with for a variety of reasons, but still, it's a plus.

But, an NVR also seems more limited in some ways, like the ability to add different brands cameras. And the number of cameras has a hard limit from what I can tell- with an 8 channel NVR I won't be able to add a 9th camera at all (or maybe with a huge amount of fooling around). I'm not sure how firmware updates are handled (or if they're really necessary). If it runs reliably then FW updates don't seem to be a make-or-break item on my list.

A PC running Blue Iris seems to be a lot more flexible and expandable. It also comes with some inherent risks due to the nature of software, but most of these can be mitigated. At the same time, it involves extra hardware (and cost), like a PoE-capable switch. I'm not a big fan of Windows 10 because it's a majorly intrusive OS. I worry about unrequested updates and all the attendant issues. Win10 updates have been known to fail badly. An NVR wouldn't have that problem, which is a huge plus. Still, the flexibility/capability of Blue Iris is pretty impressive.

With all that said, I'm thinking a PC with Blue Iris on it is probably the best way to go. I plan on using a couple of wifi cams for non-critical areas, and connecting them to a PC is easy, an NVR, probably not (if at all).

---I have the chance to grab a PC with an Intel Core i7-920 Quad Core 8 Thread @ 2.66GHz, with 10GB DDr3 RAM. Would this be sufficient for Blue Iris and say, 5 or 6 cameras?---

Actually, ignore the line above- I'll be building a custom box with up-to-date hardware, probably with a Core i7 7700 and 16Gb of RAM. With some of the spare parts I have on hand all I really need is the MB/processor and RAM, I've got almost everything else needed.

Does my reasoning seem sound to you all, or am I missing something important that should be considered?

 

[fenderman]

I admit, I'm kinda torn between going with an NVR and running Blue Iris on a PC.

The NVR approach seems like it's the easiest and the least amount of trouble to get up and running. The price of the NVR kits is pretty reasonable too. They're compact and easy to hide or secure. This is something I'm not overly concerned with for a variety of reasons, but still, it's a plus.

But, an NVR also seems more limited in some ways, like the ability to add different brands cameras. And the number of cameras has a hard limit from what I can tell- with an 8 channel NVR I won't be able to add a 9th camera at all (or maybe with a huge amount of fooling around). I'm not sure how firmware updates are handled (or if they're really necessary). If it runs reliably then FW updates don't seem to be a make-or-break item on my list.

A PC running Blue Iris seems to be a lot more flexible and expandable. It also comes with some inherent risks due to the nature of software, but most of these can be mitigated. At the same time, it involves extra hardware (and cost), like a PoE-capable switch. I'm not a big fan of Windows 10 because it's a majorly intrusive OS. I worry about unrequested updates and all the attendant issues. Win10 updates have been known to fail badly. An NVR wouldn't have that problem, which is a huge plus. Still, the flexibility/capability of Blue Iris is pretty impressive.

With all that said, I'm thinking a PC with Blue Iris on it is probably the best way to go. I plan on using a couple of wifi cams for non-critical areas, and connecting them to a PC is easy, an NVR, probably not (if at all).

---I have the chance to grab a PC with an Intel Core i7-920 Quad Core 8 Thread @ 2.66GHz, with 10GB DDr3 RAM. Would this be sufficient for Blue Iris and say, 5 or 6 cameras?---

Actually, ignore the line above- I'll be building a custom box with up-to-date hardware, probably with a Core i7 7700 and 16Gb of RAM. With some of the spare parts I have on hand all I really need is the MB/processor and RAM, I've got almost everything else needed.

Does my reasoning seem sound to you all, or am I missing something important that should be considered?

Buying a pc is cheaper than building it. For example several folks picked up almost new hp elitedesks last week with i5-8500 processors 8gb memory that are more powerful than the i7-7700 for $404 via ebay. You cannot build it for that cheap unless you steal the OS, even then you are pushing it.

choosing hardware in wiki. i7-920 is a old useless crap, it has negative value as its a powerhog.

You are confused, there is ZERO increase in "inherent risk" using a pc with blue iris. You can completely eliminate w10 updates if you are concerned. I have over 20 blue iris pc's running on windows 10 and manage many more office pc's running on windows 10 and have never experienced these bad updates. That is because every install is a clean OS install using MS media creation tool and there is no crap on the pc. W10 is a superb OS. If you think NVR updates dont fail badly, you have another thing coming.
It is just as easy to connect a wifi camera to an nvr as it is to a pc. This is basic networking. Wifi should not be used as you need to run power to the camera anyway. Pay someone to run cable if you are not capable.

 

[TL1096r]

Buying a pc is cheaper than building it. For example several folks picked up almost new hp elitedesks last week with i5-8500 processors 8gb memory that are more powerful than the i7-7700 for $404 via ebay. You cannot build it for that cheap unless you steal the OS, even then you are pushing it.

choosing hardware in wiki. i7-920 is a old useless crap, it has negative value as its a powerhog.

You are confused, there is ZERO increase in "inherent risk" using a pc with blue iris. You can completely eliminate w10 updates if you are concerned. I have over 20 blue iris pc's running on windows 10 and manage many more office pc's running on windows 10 and have never experienced these bad updates. That is because every install is a clean OS install using MS media creation tool and there is no crap on the pc. W10 is a superb OS. If you think NVR updates dont fail badly, you have another thing coming.
It is just as easy to connect a wifi camera to an nvr as it is to a pc. This is basic networking. Wifi should not be used as you need to run power to the camera anyway. Pay someone to run cable if you are not capable.

Good info. This is why I always hesitate. I would've went with i7-7700 over the i5-8500. Is anyone out there willing to link good finds on ebay. I am in middle of wiring cable and just need the Bi computer and to purchase all cameras for each area. I have a SSD and 8GB WD Purple.

 

[fenderman]

Good info. This is why I always hesitate. I would've went with i7-7700 over the i5-8500. Is anyone out there willing to link good finds on ebay. I am in middle of wiring cable and just need the Bi computer and to purchase all cameras for each area. I have a SSD and 8GB WD Purple.

Ebay comes and goes, you need to check daily. Good deals disappear quickly.

 

[J Sigmo]

Ebay comes and goes, you need to check daily. Good deals disappear quickly.

...because assholes like me buy them up!

Thanks to @fenderman's tip, I snagged the last three of those Elitedesks with the i5-8500s. Fantastic deal! I wanted four, but hesitated because one of our guys was dragging his feet on wanting one. He snoozed and "losed".

They scream with SSDs in them. And they run really cool. Very low power.

At home, I'm running an i7-7700 for Blue iris, and that system has been flawless. A year later, and these i5-8500s popped up.and were the deal of the day!

While you will put more effort into setting up a BI-PC system, in my opinion, it's worth it. The capabilities of BI are amazing, and new things are added all of the time with updates. And you can update if and when you want, so you don't have to if you don't feel like it.

Get a powerful PC, and a POE switch that's a LOT bigger than you think you'll want. After you have a few cameras up, you will realize that you need more to fill in gaps and get zoomed-in high resolution images in particular areas.

It's really nice to be able to add a camera any time you want without restrictions on brand or model. I have a hodgepodge of brands and models, and they all play well with BI.

(Don't tell fenderman, but I even have some Reolinks in the mix. Not that I recommend them, but I bought them before learning better, and I'm too lazy to replace all of them).

I use one, modified, just to capture audio from a two-way radio system, archive it, and allow me to listen from anywhere I have cell or Wifi service. And I can catch up on past traffic just the way you can play back clips from the past for any other camera. BI can trigger from sound, by the way.

 

[TL1096r]

...because assholes like me buy them up!

Thanks to @fenderman's tip, I snagged the last three of those Elitedesks with the i5-8500s. Fantastic deal! I wanted four, but hesitated because one of our guys was dragging his feet on wanting one. He snoozed and "losed".

They scream with SSDs in them. And they run really cool. Very low power.

At home, I'm running an i7-7700 for Blue iris, and that system has been flawless. A year later, and these i5-8500s popped up.and were the deal of the day!

While you will put more effort into setting up a BI-PC system, in my opinion, it's worth it. The capabilities of BI are amazing, and new things are added all of the time with updates. And you can update if and when you want, so you don't have to if you don't feel like it.

Get a powerful PC, and a POE switch that's a LOT bigger than you think you'll want. After you have a few cameras up, you will realize that you need more to fill in gaps and get zoomed-in high resolution images in particular areas.

It's really nice to be able to add a camera any time you want without restrictions on brand or model. I have a hodgepodge of brands and models, and they all play well with BI.

(Don't tell fenderman, but I even have some Reolinks in the mix. Not that I recommend them, but I bought them before learning better, and I'm too lazy to replace all of them).

I use one, modified, just to capture audio from a two-way radio system, archive it, and allow me to listen from anywhere I have cell or Wifi service. And I can catch up on past traffic just the way you can play back clips from the past for any other camera. BI can trigger from sound, by the way.

Thank you

Why would you need so many? I did not see the elitedesks with i5-8500. Do you have the link even if purchased. I can see what stats/price it went for and look for similar.

Yes I have used NVR in past and never again only BI machines now.

I like your throught on the switch. Fenderman talked me out of it to a cheaper $80 one and I feel I will be fine with it.

Ebay comes and goes, you need to check daily. Good deals disappear quickly.

I see. I have to look at some good past listings to pick up something similar when it comes available.

I have over 20 blue iris pc's running on windows 10 and manage many more office pc's running on windows 10

That is a lot. Why so many and do you have a write-up on your setup. I doubt many are running as much as you so as already known you probably have more experience with what is best.

 

[J Sigmo]

Thank you

Why would you need so many? I did not see the elitedesks with i5-8500. Do you have the link even if purchased. I can see what stats/price it went for and look for similar.

Yes I have used NVR in past and never again only BI machines now.

I like your throught on the switch. Fenderman talked me out of it to a cheaper $80 one and I feel I will be fine with it.

Fenderman kindly started a thread with the link to these particular machines a few weeks ago, and I was lucky enough to see it in time to snag a few.

HP Elitedesk SFF G4

It happened that we were needing a PC to use for another HMI (human machine interface) workstation for a control system at work, and I wanted to upgrade a workstation on my desk at work, and two coworkers needed PCs for their homes.

But right now I'm playing with the one I got for me at home as a media server. I may go with it for that, or take it back to work and use it on my desk there.

I recommend getting a bigger switch than people think they're going to need because right now, I have three POE switches in my camera system at home. I started with an 8 port unit, but have added to that over the last year or so.

But it hasn't been all bad because having them more "distributed" has probably saved me some wire the way it's ended up. But if I was starting over, I'd have run cables from each camera location directly to the main network center point.

It would use more wire, but be a bit cleaner.

 

[SeattleMike]

Buying a pc is cheaper than building it. ... You cannot build it for that cheap unless you steal the OS, even then you are pushing it.

I wish you had spent a little more time reading my post.

I wrote in the post to ignore that line, that I was going to put together a box with a Core i7 7700 and 16Gb of RAM.

I also mentioned that "With some of the spare parts I have on hand all I really need is the MB/processor and RAM, I've got almost everything else needed."

I'm getting a new, unused i7 7700 for ~$150 from a friend who got a snafu shipment and ended up with two. Motherboards and RAM are fairly inexpensive, so I'll by them new. I have everything else on hand to build the PC, including a newish HDD, box, power supply, etc etc. My son has a spare Win10 Pro disk he never used. Total cost to me should be around $300. To be frank, I could drop $1K on a PC and never miss it, but I kind of like the idea of building one again (I've built dozens and dozens over the years). And I'm always happy to save money.

You are confused, there is ZERO increase in "inherent risk" using a pc with blue iris.

I think any PC, regardless of OS or software used, carries an inherent risk. It may be small, but it never really falls to zero. I know plenty of people who've been hammered by Windows updates.

For example, the latest update from MS had issues: Windows 10 May 2019 Update (v1903) -Known issues: Display brightness not working, Camera app not working, Wi-Fi cutting out, Sound not working with Dolby Atmos headphones, AMD RAID driver problems, Night Light settings not working, Duplicate Files in user profile directory, etc etc.

I'm glad you've had good luck with updates, but sometimes they do cause problems, clean system or not.

If you think NVR updates dont fail badly, you have another thing coming.

I never said that. Look, I'm asking questions and trying to learn. I appreciate your advice, but why so hostile?

Wifi should not be used as you need to run power to the camera anyway. Pay someone to run cable if you are not capable.

I literally said that the wifi cams "will be used in non-critical areas", so what's the problem? As for wiring, I wired my entire home with an Aritech alarm system when I bought it, so I'm quite capable of pulling wire. I do it every so often for other projects, it's just a pain in the butt.

 

[fenderman]

I wish you had spent a little more time reading my post.

I wrote in the post to ignore that line, that I was going to put together a box with a Core i7 7700 and 16Gb of RAM.

I also mentioned that "With some of the spare parts I have on hand all I really need is the MB/processor and RAM, I've got almost everything else needed."

I'm getting a new, unused i7 7700 for ~$150 from a friend who got a snafu shipment and ended up with two. Motherboards and RAM are fairly inexpensive, so I'll by them new. I have everything else on hand to build the PC, including a newish HDD, box, power supply, etc etc. My son has a spare Win10 Pro disk he never used. Total cost to me should be around $300. To be frank, I could drop $1K on a PC and never miss it, but I kind of like the idea of building one again (I've built dozens and dozens over the years). And I'm always happy to save money.



I think any PC, regardless of OS or software used, carries an inherent risk. It may be small, but it never really falls to zero. I know plenty of people who've been hammered by Windows updates.

For example, the latest update from MS had issues: Windows 10 May 2019 Update (v1903) -Known issues: Display brightness not working, Camera app not working, Wi-Fi cutting out, Sound not working with Dolby Atmos headphones, AMD RAID driver problems, Night Light settings not working, Duplicate Files in user profile directory, etc etc.

I'm glad you've had good luck with updates, but sometimes they do cause problems, clean system or not.



I never said that. Look, I'm asking questions and trying to learn. Why so hostile?




I literally said that the wifi cams "will be used in non-critical areas", so what's the problem? As for wiring, I wired my entire home with an Aritech alarm system when I bought it, so I'm quite capable of pulling wire. I do it every so often for other projects, it's just a pain in the butt.

I read your post, that's why I made comment about the PC because it is evident that you failed to do basic research on what type of processors are suitable for blue Iris.... I love it when folks like you first try to buy a cheap garbage PC and then they tell me they have tons of money to drop and it wouldn't bother them...you don't otherwise you would buy a top-of-the-line PC or build one... In fact you wouldn't even be using blue Iris.....
If it's non critical then you don't need a camera. I doubt you have the skill to pull cable otherwise you would do it.
Again you are confused, you can simply prevent all Windows updates and the update issue you present will be a non-starter... For folks like you who seem to want reasons to buy an NVR I highly recommend you do so that way you'll appreciate blueiris any other VMS when you finally make the switch.
Please don't pretend that you know what you're doing, you lack basic networking skills as evident by your misunderstanding with respect to Wi-Fi cameras and how they connect to the network.

 

[aristobrat]

I think any PC, regardless of OS or software used, carries an inherent risk.

I agree, I just think that a lot folks forget that NVRs and cameras are also computers that run an OS and have software on them too.

From watching forum posts, I don't recall seeing anyone post that they lost their BI config or recordings because someone exploited a Windows or BI vulnerability that gave them access to the system (or from a whacky Windows Update). On the other hand, there are usually a few posts a quarter from folks who lost config/recordings on their NVR or camera specifically because an exploit was used to gain access to their system. Windows and BI receive regular updates that are easy to obtain. NVR/camera firmware comes out on a much slower cadence, and folks have to actively search it out. So in terms of risk, that's something that folks should consider (IMO).

For WiFi ... I have one WiFi camera on my system (in a location I haven't hard-wired yet). It records in BI 24/7, which means it's "talking" on WiFi 24/7. It doesn't use a lot of bandwidth at all, but the constant transmits result in this one camera using about 40% of the total airtime of the AP that it's associated with. This does not help the performance of the AP.

 

[fenderman]

I really resonate with your comments on Hikvision NVR + cameras. I’m in a wheelchair and doing the complicated things with BI and even wiring and setup is impossible. I’d really appreciate some help from members to pick a good hikvision NVR and cameras. I know it all depends on what I need but I can send anyone willing to help detailed images of my house and what areas I want to keep an eye on. I’m only set on one thing and that is that the NVR and cameras need to be Hikvision as I’ve had installers rip me off with worthless systems. I can’t physically see what they are doing or argue about being ripped off. Any help is very much appreciated.

There is no extra wiring and setup required for blue iris vs an NVR. Wheelchair or not. Blue iris is not complicated and even if it was, the wheelchair would have no bearing, the changes are made with a keyboard, just like you would with an NVR. Most installers are peddling some version of hik/dahua systems. Simply relying on the brand alone is not going to get you far. They both make both good and crappy cameras.