Dahua TIOC camera does not recognize the IVS rule at night, original support is at a loss...

[cam-da]

Currently i got feedback from R&D.

ZITAT:

This model of camera is from series FULL color series and cameras are dedicated to work in color mode during the day and also night.

In this situation analytics AI is optimized to work in color mode with whole light/soft light (smart) during night and AI function focused on this mode.

Unfortunately camera in mode black/white(night) has lower effectiveness, then color mode and as we saw has a lot problems with AI detection in close distance.

This situation will improve in next Balinese fw's but in current situation if customer don't want use in night color mode, shouldn't use full color series cameras.

I have exhausted all possibilities of adjusting the camera parameters to improve the analysis


He should will use standard 3&5 series ), my recommendation is use 5 series from WizMInad S 8/4 Mpx

ttps:/www.dahuasecurity.com/products/All-Products/Network-Cameras/WizMind-S-Series

Where analytics is optimized to work with IR led and black/white mode.

000000

Hello @wittaj, @duplo

I received this message from R&D after more than 3 weeks:

ZITAT:

This model of camera is from series FULL color series and cameras are dedicated to work in color mode during the day and also night.

In this situation analytics AI is optimized to work in color mode with whole light/soft light (smart) during night and AI function focused on this mode.

Unfortunately camera in mode black/white(night) has lower effectiveness, then color mode and as we saw has a lot problems with AI detection in close distance.

This situation will improve in next Balinese fw's but in current situation if customer don't want use in night color mode, shouldn't use full color series cameras.

I have exhausted all possibilities of adjusting the camera parameters to improve the analysis


He should will use standard 3&5 series ), my recommendation is use 5 series from WizMInad S 8/4 Mpx

ttps:/www.dahuasecurity.com/products/All-Products/Network-Cameras/WizMind-S-Series

Where analytics is optimized to work with IR led and black/white mode.


It is very unfortunate that such a big brand manufacturer sends me this message. Surely the original support or the distributor support should also know this or am I the only buyer of this "unfortunate" model?


The distributor has now responded to my complaint and is of the opinion that he will be able to configure this camera remotely tomorrow. He already tried the configuration 2 weeks ago and failed.

I'm curious to see what the results will be tomorrow.

 

[wittaj]

Sadly I think that is just an excuse. WTF offer infrared on the camera if the AI won't work with it. It works with other Dahua models. Now granted it does work better in color, but if someone isn't pushing the limits of the field of view, it is very effective. And your field of view, the other Dahua models will work in infrared mode.

You don't have stadium quality lighting there so then they will say "you don't have enough light for it to properly work in color"

Did you select these cameras or did an installer/distributor suggest them to you?

Based on my experiences and those of others here, I stand by my claim that the sensor/processor combo is undersized for what they are trying to do with that model.

 

[duplo]

Not sure why people ask question, never answer and then come back with stupid chinese support answers.

Maybe the night model is bad and it will be updated in future (what i wrote in first place). This could the same like smart ir which sometimes does not work with newer cams. But could also a standard answer for "i dont know better".

It could also be possible that the support is correct. These TiOCs cams have a different function. The main feature is the Smart Dual Light function, which is enabled by default.

The camera has a monitoring area, which should detect persons. Then it switches from IR to color and wait until the rule area is triggered (IVS).

You can read this up here:

undefined - Dahua International

Dahua Technology

www.dahuasecurity.com

So it is possible that the camera is trained to do best in color mode (IVS) and due to lack of cpu or bad firmware model it is unable to work like a normal camera.

Thats why i asked if it works with SMD. To my knowledge all the special TiOC functions are bond to SMD. If you disabled the smart dual light feature and SMD it might not work anymore.


The main question is: if you dont want the TiOC functionality and dont use it, why did you bought a tioc cam in first place ?

A 5442 model would perform much better and is also cheaper. According to the answer from support they might think the same and recommend you a 3/5 series wizmind s camera, which the 5442 is.

 

[cam-da]

Hello community, @duplo, @wittaj,

I haven't been in touch for a while.

My problem still exists. Now, when it is already partly clear that the distributor offered and sold me unsuitable camera, I have another problem.

Although the development department of Dahua in China has already confirmed that this camera can only work correctly with the white light (Illuminator), the distributor most likely wants to shift all problems onto me and is trying every trick in the book. At the moment, the distributor's support has been of the opinion for 2 weeks that this problem = non-detection in the dark is due to the data rate (allegedly there are too many fluctuations in the network) so that they can stay out of the matter. It is clear that the distributor is reluctant to take this camera back.

I have carried out several tests myself in the last few days and have closely observed the camera image and the recorder image in parallel. There are no deviations or latencies, so the network is perfectly fine.

 

[wittaj]

Oh man we are sorry to hear that, but also not surprised.

How about taking the camera off your system and using just an SD card, prove to them that the network fluctuations claim is total nonsense.

 

[duplo]

You still dont answer why you bought a tioc camera and dont want to use the functions.


Looks like you are located in germany, so it should be possible to claim a defect of the camera and get your money back.

Just buy a 5442 from andy, case close. You can get one for around 180€.

 

[cam-da]

Hello @duplo,

I have already described in my post that I have communicated my camera requests to the distributor of the Dahua products. I was even contacted by phone. I didn't ask for the TIOC functions. Extra I mentioned that no LED illuminator and no alarm LED on the camera are desired at night. My mistake was that I let myself be convinced by the distributor to buy these cameras. My wish was to take over all the functions of recorders because I use the recorder's alarm outputs anyway.

First, the distributor for external use for mounting on the column sent me the wrong camera (TIOC in the Dome housing). This camera has changed the distributor for the Bulett camera after many discussions, but I got the TIOC camera I didn't want.

In the case of unsuccessful person recognition in the dark, the distributor has claimed that this function is perfectly possible with the supplied camera. One week, distributor tried the setting unsuccessful and later forwarded to Dahua support. After numerous unsuccessful attempts by Dahua support, my case was forwarded to Dahua in China.

It's starting to start again. I ended up with the distributor who has been trying to run the camera in the night for 2 weeks (unfortunately without success). My impression is that the distributor wants to show me that I have bad knowledge and experience, so he no longer has to take the camera back. This thing now has the legal form. Also included in this case is the manager of the distributor, who asks me for instructions about my order. It's a nausea. It only costs me my free time and endless annoying correspondence. I'll contact Dahua directly with my case.

 

[wittaj]

It sounds like the distributor is not able to prove it works as intended, but that doesn't mean they will do anything about it (not sure of the laws where you are).

Unfortunately, I think reaching out to Dahua will result in a dead-end. We simply are not their target audience, it is the professional installers/distributors that are authorized to sell and install this gear, so we cannot purchase directly and thus they will not take your phone call for support related questions or suggestions - they will tell you to talk to the installer/distributor you purchased from for sales, support or firmware updates.

Many people have bought a "Hikvision" or "Dahua" from Amazon or some shady foreign website or a 3rd party seller or even an authorized distributor and when they call Hikvision or Dahua for support they basically tell them to go pound salt - we have dozens of threads were people come here after trying that route. We simply are not their intended market to sell to and they will not take your call for support...Lot's of threads here confirming this, including one from a few months ago where someone tried to call for support and they told them sorry talk to your installer.

The fact that you got Dahua in China to even look/investigate it on behalf of the distributor is about as far as it will go. Once you start pushing them for a refund or resolution, I suspect they will go radio silent on you. We have seem many threads here follow this same pattern.

 

[duplo]

So their advice for your outdoor camera was a tioc, but you didnt ask for tioc function?

I dont understand the case. if they already know that its not possible (china dahua support) why they still want to fix it ?
who is the seller ? expert-security, germanprotect or cambuy ?

Set them a deadline for fixing this. then try paypal buyer protection or contact a lawyer directly.

why do you want to contact dahua if you already know that the camera can only work in color-mode ?

 

[CCTVCam]

That drawing is too high. You can walk right under that trigger point at several places on the left of the photo. That line in the bush the camera will probably interpret as being 10 feet high and the same at the other side. You have to think in 3D. Alos, note IVS lines on trigger when the direction of travel is the same as the arrow on the line ie usually perpednicular. So I'd alwaysa cross hatch more in the opposite direction to capture anyone coming from the side who's jumped the fence or gone around the gate. I always aim to draw the trip wires no higher than knee high and to that end you need to take careful reference to the height it could be interpreted as being in reference to the anchor points.

Note with IVS you can only draw so many lines per rul, but you can add multiple rules so increase the line count that way. The anchor points are crucial though.

 

[bigredfish]

^^^^^
Yep. Exactly as I mentioned in Post#2

 

[cam-da]

Hello together,

I went one step further.

After legal threat, the distributor is “simply” ready to exchange these TIOC cameras for another (without TIOC).

This thing has longed for almost two months.

The distributor now offers me the camera DH-IPC-HFW3441T-Z(A)S-S2 (4MP IR Vari-focal Bullet WizSense Network Camera).

Does anyone have the experience with this camera, especially in passenger and vehicle detection at night, as well as with the IVS rule at night?

 

[wittaj]

What a crap camera they are proposing.

4MP on a 1/3" sensor - can anyone say budget cam. That is on a smaller sensor than the camera you have now (4MP on 1/2.7" sensor)

That sensor is good for 720P, but 4MP on that sensor at night - forget it.

Tell them you only want a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio.

What are they charging you? It might be better at this point to simply get a refund from them and buy the 5442 camera from Andy here and probably cheaper than what you paid.

 

[bigredfish]

Yep, that 4MP with 1/3 sensor would have been ok…… in 2016

 

[wittaj]

Yep, that 4MP with 1/3 sensor would have been ok…… in 2016

It shouldn't amaze us that distributors are pushing these cheap budget cams, and probably at expensive prices that could buy 2023 tech cameras.

 

[bigredfish]

Yeah, I get it. 99% of folks buying this stuff just want to be "able to see whats going on" and fail to understand or know the difference.
Can't blame them, its like computers, most just want a price point. Some in the "middle" knowledge area like me are willing to pay a premium for performance. And yet others who have a specific task and are deep into it, want/need the top of the line High-end gaming machine.

For me its always been for evidence. What are the two things LE can do something with?
1- Face ID
2- License plate

The rest is "interesting". Though granted, we always couple that with overview to "see whats going on"

 

[duplo]

Do you even need a varifocal camera ? From the video you posted looks more like 3.6mm would fit.

Maybe just ask for a refund.

According to what you say

• they suggest you a TiOC camera but you didnt ask for tioc functions
• they sent you the wrong model at first
• they stole your time with their teamviewer sessions
• they claim your network is the fault of everything

Do you think you can trust them ?

I give +1 for a 5442 3.6 or ZE from Andy.

 

[bigredfish]

^^^^
+1

 

[cam-da]

Thank you very much for your answers.

@duplo : Yes, you're right, I don't trust them anymore. (unfortunately I used to)

I am glad that I can be in contact with you and that I have found this forum.

@ vari-focal-length: I don't have the necessary knowledge to select fixed focal lengths correctly in advance and I don't want to give up the privilege of being able to change the focal length afterwards. That's why I prefer varifocal lenses.

@wittaj : you wrote me the following:

What a crap camera they are proposing.
...
That sensor is good for 720P, but 4MP on that sensor at night - forget it.

Tell them you only want a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio.

and you have added an interesting table

Now you have sparked my interest. In order to make "more independent decisions" or how you can recognize which MP/sensor ratio is ideal, I have the following questions:

Where does the table come from?
Who made it?
But above all, on what basis?
What knowledge is there that I don't have here?
Is it an implicit knowledge that is difficult to formulate in words and that you can only get from practical experience, just as you cannot explain to anyone theoretically how to learn to drive a car?
OR
is it conceptual and/or factual knowledge that can be learned?

Because I would also like to have or acquire the knowledge to be able to judge the cameras like you
I feel a bit in a quandary here because the distributor is pushing this "crap camera" on me. I wish I was in a position to not only tell him that I want an "ideal MP/sensor ratio", but also have some background knowledge to have "counter arguments" in case he tells me some stories that are nonsense again.

 

[wittaj]

Great questions!

The table was created by a member here by taking all the information he learned and distilling it into a more understandable format LOL.

Prior to the table, this is what we said:

Look for MP/sensor ratio of the following:

2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor
4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor
8MP on the 1/1.2" sensor

Chase sensor size, not MP.

AND:

720P - 1/3" = .333"
2MP - 1/2.8" = .357" (think a .38 caliber bullet)
4MP - 1/1.8" = .555" (bigger than a .50 caliber bullet or ball)
8MP - 1/1.2" = .833" (bigger than a 20mm chain gun round)

I think the table is much easier to understand and follow and not sure why we never came up with it before LOL.

But the table outlines what most of us have experienced when it comes to sensor sizes and MP. It is more real world experience than theoretical.

It is simply years of experience with all the different types of cameras and experiences of members here in trying to get the best night time performance.

And the common thread is MP and sensor size. Look at any consumer grade camera and they are on less than ideal MP/sensor ratios - they are selling to to naïve consumer that is chasing MP.

But even the Dahua and Hikvision of the world sell budget cams, just like Chevy sells a cheap car and a high performance car.

At the end of the day, these sensors are small, so you want them as large as possible.


Here is a recent example someone posted with an 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor (common combination for a budget camera) versus 8MP on the proper sized sensor - which image looks better to you?

Of more importance is that the top picture is default settings, so a horribly slow shutter of maybe 1/12 so any motion would be a blur. The 2nd picture is a 1/100 shutter and will get a clean capture. The faster the shutter speed, the more light that is needed. That bottom picture at 1/100 shutter is impressive. If the top camera was set to a 1/100 shutter it would be a very dark image.


Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera. The camera you are looking at is designed for 2MP, so when they pop an 8MP lens on it, the processor is still the same and has to work harder. In some situations that is problematic.


Let's look at a camera that would be comparable to the one they are now pushing:

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the ideal MP/sensor ratio:

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

But an 8MP will be even worse because it will need even more light than the 4MP on the same size sensor.


To further understand the importance of MP/sensor ratio, use a window on your house for example. Which one is clearer to look thru - the one with a screen or one without? The more holes a screen is produced with, the more material there is as well.

These sensors are small and we need to get as much light to them as possible.

An analogy to try to understand why cameras need so much more light - let's look at an 8MP camera and this 8MP needs at least four times the amount of light as a 2MP for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 8MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has 4 times the holes, but also 4 times the "screen material" than the 2MP.

Kind of hard to explain, but lets try to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out through the screen is a little darker outside because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has four times the amount of holes (now it represents 8MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is a lot more screen material.

So if your house is like most where the top pane is glass with no screen and the bottom half is window with the screen and you see something outside during the daytime - do you sit down to look out through the screen or do you stand up to look a the object through the window with no screen?

And that is accentuated even more at night time. Look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material?

Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.

Look at a window screen and available meshes. The actual window opening does not change size, so that is the sensor. The screen material is the "pixel screen" that makes up the MP. Which one of these is going to let more light thru?

So if you are taking a 22 mesh screen and trying to get the same amount of brightness thru into the house as the 4 or 14 mesh screen, it will need A LOT more light.

A close comparison would be the 22 mesh screen is an 8MP and the 14 mesh is a 4MP. So if you have the same amount of light going thru a 14 mesh screen as you do a 22 mesh screen, it will be darker for the 22 mesh screen and any parameter adjustment you do to brighten it (gain, iris, brightness) will add more noise.


Take a look at this thread I created that is a good study for NOOB on the value of MP/sensor ratios and the importance of focal length over MP.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

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