Expecting to much

[Dsmtweaker]

we have a business system that consisted of all illustra 2mp mini domes connected to an exaqvision server at 1080p.

The owner was not impressed with the resolution, so I replaced 1 camera with a
DS-2CD2185FWD-1 4K dome

The owner is still not happy with the performance as he doesn’t think it looks 4K(like tv show or movies)

The camera overlooks a parking lot, and you can’t even make out a license plate 50-75 feet away.

Are the expectations to high? Or the product quality to low?

 

[SouthernYankee]

If you want license plates mount the cameras low at all the drive ways.
See the lpr section for license plates. They require special camera configuration, they not work like they show on TV.
Get the correct lens or zoom for your application.
Do you require night low light application.
More megapixels is not necessarily better.

What is the make and model of the camera ?

 

[mat200]

we have a business system that consisted of all illustra 2mp mini domes connected to an exaqvision server at 1080p.

The owner was not impressed with the resolution, so I replaced 1 camera with a
DS-2CD2185FWD-1 4K dome

The owner is still not happy with the performance as he doesn’t think it looks 4K(like tv show or movies)

The camera overlooks a parking lot, and you can’t even make out a license plate 50-75 feet away.

Are the expectations to high? Or the product quality to low?

Welcome @Dsmtweaker

Wanting to see a license plate 50-75 feet away... yes, your expectations and that of the owner are far too high... probably due to way too many CSI shows on TV.

Do take a look at the cliff notes, and search for the DORI section and the associated math.

A 8MP "4K" camera at 90 degrees has about a 25 foot "ID distance" - that is the distance to 100 ppf ( what we like as a standard for ID purposes ). You need between 60-80 ppf iirc to read a plate in the day ( night time is a different beast ) .. so the same 8MP at a straight on license plate will be 100/80 or 100/60x 25 feet .. so significantly less than your 50-75 feet range...

 

[Dsmtweaker]

It’s a hikvision DS-2CD2185FWD-I

 

[mat200]

It’s a hikvision DS-2CD2185FWD-I

Hi @Dsmtweaker

which lens do you have for it?


DS-2CD2185FWD-I(S)
8 MP(4K) IR Fixed Dome Network Camera
• Max. 3840 × 2160@20fps
• 2.8 mm/4 mm/6 mm/8 mm/12 mm fixed lens, optional
• H.265, H.265+, H.264+, H.264
•120dB Wide Dynamic Range
• 3D Digital Noise Reduction
• DC12V & PoE (802.3af)
• IR range: 30m
• Support on-board storage, up to 128 GB

 

[Dsmtweaker]

Welcome @Dsmtweaker

Wanting to see a license plate 50-75 feet away... yes, your expectations and that of the owner are far too high... probably due to way too many CSI shows on TV.

Do take a look at the cliff notes, and search for the DORI section and the associated math.

A 8MP "4K" camera at 90 degrees has about a 25 foot "ID distance" - that is the distance to 100 ppf ( what we like as a standard for ID purposes ). You need between 60-80 ppf iirc to read a plate in the day ( night time is a different beast ) .. so the same 8MP at a straight on license plate will be 100/80 or 100/60x 25 feet .. so significantly less than your 50-75 feet range...

Attached is an image from the camera. You can see the red boxes around what the owner is talking about.

Our camera's arn't monitored real time, so if we needed information, it would be after the fact from the recording. So his "thought/idea" was he would be able to pull a plate, or a face, or whatever he needed out of the camera's field of view post recording.

 

[Dsmtweaker]

Hi @Dsmtweaker

which lens do you have for it?


DS-2CD2185FWD-I(S)
8 MP(4K) IR Fixed Dome Network Camera
• Max. 3840 × 2160@20fps
• 2.8 mm/4 mm/6 mm/8 mm/12 mm fixed lens, optional
• H.265, H.265+, H.264+, H.264
•120dB Wide Dynamic Range
• 3D Digital Noise Reduction
• DC12V & PoE (802.3af)
• IR range: 30m
• Support on-board storage, up to 128 GB

DS-2CD2185FWD-I, 2.8mm Fixed Lens, 3840×2160 Resolution Dome Network Surveillance Camera, 30m Night Vision, Micro SD Card Slot H.265+,IP67,ONVIF,IK10

 

[Walrus]

You are expecting too much. Down near the end, is that the only way in/out of the parking lot? Add another camera zoomed in on the entrance picking up plates as they come/leave.

And possibly another camera located near the CRV at the end on the left pointing back at the cars on the right side so you get a perpendicular shot of their plates instead of the crappy angle.

 

[mat200]

Attached is an image from the camera. You can see the red boxes around what the owner is talking about.

Our camera's arn't monitored real time, so if we needed information, it would be after the fact from the recording. So his "thought/idea" was he would be able to pull a plate, or a face, or whatever he needed out of the camera's field of view post recording.

Hi @Dsmtweaker

The 8MP camera has an angle ( H FOV ) of:
2.8 mm, horizontal field of view: 102°

There is also NO way at the current range and angle ( from camera to car license plate ) that you will be able to get a good read off a license plate.

Suggest taking some time to test out reading plates at different angles about 25 feet away from the camera. Ideally if the plate is straight on during the day you should be able to get a good read on a plate at about that distance.

 

[aristobrat]

@Dsmtweaker, you might get some use out of this online tool:
IPVM Camera Calculator V3

Type in the street address for the office, let it pull up the Google Maps image, then add a camera to the map (and set the model/lens size). You should be able to position that camera on the image then drop a little pin (that looks like a guy) at various distances and see an estimate of the image quality, including license plate.

Granted, it won't simulate the awkward angle that you're working with, but it should give you a pretty good idea of what you'll likely get. You can change the lens size (from 2.8mm to something higher) and see that effect on the image quality, etc (i.e. you'll get more detail further away from the camera, but the field-of-view narrows). Good way to get a feel for a camera before buying it.

 

[Dsmtweaker]

Hi @Dsmtweaker

The 8MP camera has an angle ( H FOV ) of:
2.8 mm, horizontal field of view: 102°

There is also NO way at the current range and angle ( from camera to car license plate ) that you will be able to get a good read off a license plate.

Suggest taking some time to test out reading plates at different angles about 25 feet away from the camera. Ideally if the plate is straight on during the day you should be able to get a good read on a plate at about that distance.

Ok, fist let me state I am not a security camera guy by any means. I do the IT. But what I’m wondering, is for example with my DSLR, if I took a picture from that same spot with say my 18mm lens, and set it to a higher f-stop, like f22. I would have essentially the same I would have the same wide angle fov over the whole lot, but I could digitally zoom into the photo in post processing, and see that far plate clear as day. Since it’s using a higher megapixel count you don’t lose much detail even at 100+ feet

Why is it a vast difference when applied to a security camera?

 

[TonyR]

I'm with @Walrus ...a choke point would help tremendously.

Also: if the cam is capable of 3840 × 2160, can we see a screenshot of that posted rather than the 1600 x 900?

 

[Dsmtweaker]

I'm with @Walrus ...a choke point would help tremendously.

Also: if the cam is capable of 3840 × 2160, can we see a screenshot of that posted rather than the 1600 x 900?

Is this better?

 

[mat200]

Ok, fist let me state I am not a security camera guy by any means. I do the IT. But what I’m wondering, is for example with my DSLR, if I took a picture from that same spot with say my 18mm lens, and set it to a higher f-stop, like f22. I would have essentially the same I would have the same wide angle fov over the whole lot, but I could digitally zoom into the photo in post processing, and see that far plate clear as day. Since it’s using a higher megapixel count you don’t lose much detail even at 100+ feet

Why is it a vast difference when applied to a security camera?

Hi @Dsmtweaker

The principles are the same...

Ok you're an IT guy... so you should be OK with math, and have some understanding of pixel density as well as concepts like dots per inch and resolution... and you should also know that digital zoom does nothing to add data which was not captured in the first place.

For a good readable image straight on a license plate during the day you need about 60-80 ppf. PPF = pixels per foot.

Using math, again see the cliff notes...

for a 90 degree H FOV with a 8MP camera out to the 100 ppf density line ( this is the "arc" part, a 1/4 of the circumference ) - you get a Radius of about 25 feet.

OK, got that - that's to the 100 ppf density line, what we use for ID purposes.

For license plates ( for a straight on shot ) you need 60-80 ppf ( again see the cliff notes, DORI section.. ) you're looking at 100/60 or 100/80 * 25 feet.

With a wider angle - like 102 degrees the range will be less. - thus I ball parked it and gave you about 25 feet as a working distance to play with.

Simple.

The exact equations are in the cliff notes iirc.

Remember this assumes effective pixels and is the theoretical calculation. If the image is poor and the pixels not clear ( like in low light, in rain, .. ) then naturally the range is less.

The same concepts and principles applies to your DLSR. Try using your DLSR with the same H FOV and same resolution..

 

[TonyR]

Is this better?

Yes.
Note that with the optimum angle, one can make out images that are about 20 feet (estimate) just as @mat200 pointed out.
Now if you could control where the vehicle enter and leave the right cam would stand a good chance of working out for you.

 

[Dsmtweaker]

Hi @Dsmtweaker

The principles are the same...

Ok you're an IT guy... so you should be OK with math, and have some understanding of pixel density as well as concepts like dots per inch and resolution... and you should also know that digital zoom does nothing to add data which was not captured in the first place.

For a good readable image straight on a license plate during the day you need about 60-80 ppf. PPF = pixels per foot.

Using math, again see the cliff notes...

for a 90 degree H FOV with a 8MP camera out to the 100 ppf density line ( this is the "arc" part, a 1/4 of the circumference ) - you get a Radius of about 25 feet.

OK, got that - that's to the 100 ppf density line, what we use for ID purposes.

For license plates ( for a straight on shot ) you need 60-80 ppf ( again see the cliff notes, DORI section.. ) you're looking at 100/60 or 100/80 * 25 feet.

With a wider angle - like 102 degrees the range will be less. - thus I ball parked it and gave you about 25 feet as a working distance to play with.

Simple.

The exact equations are in the cliff notes iirc.

Remember this assumes effective pixels and is the theoretical calculation. If the image is poor and the pixels not clear ( like in low light, in rain, .. ) then naturally the range is less.

The same concepts and principles applies to your DLSR. Try using your DLSR with the same H FOV and same resolution..

Just to test it, I got up next to the camera with my DSLR just to see. I have attached 3 images, however these are all the same picture, just digitally zoomed. First is full image, 2nd is at 3x digital zoom, 3rd is at 5x digital zoom. I realize the original FOV isn't as wide, but the ability to retain detail is night and day.

 

[Dsmtweaker]

Hi @Dsmtweaker

The principles are the same...

Ok you're an IT guy... so you should be OK with math, and have some understanding of pixel density as well as concepts like dots per inch and resolution... and you should also know that digital zoom does nothing to add data which was not captured in the first place.

For a good readable image straight on a license plate during the day you need about 60-80 ppf. PPF = pixels per foot.

Using math, again see the cliff notes...

for a 90 degree H FOV with a 8MP camera out to the 100 ppf density line ( this is the "arc" part, a 1/4 of the circumference ) - you get a Radius of about 25 feet.

OK, got that - that's to the 100 ppf density line, what we use for ID purposes.

For license plates ( for a straight on shot ) you need 60-80 ppf ( again see the cliff notes, DORI section.. ) you're looking at 100/60 or 100/80 * 25 feet.

With a wider angle - like 102 degrees the range will be less. - thus I ball parked it and gave you about 25 feet as a working distance to play with.

Simple.

The exact equations are in the cliff notes iirc.

Remember this assumes effective pixels and is the theoretical calculation. If the image is poor and the pixels not clear ( like in low light, in rain, .. ) then naturally the range is less.

The same concepts and principles applies to your DLSR. Try using your DLSR with the same H FOV and same resolution..

So why not increase the megapixels so you can still be at 200-300 or more ppf at a 100ft arch? Similar to the dslr, where it is giving you the wide angle field of view, while still maintaining detail at a distance?

 

[fenderman]

So why not increase the megapixels so you can still be at 200-300 or more ppf at a 100ft arch? Similar to the dslr, where it is giving you the wide angle field of view, while still maintaining detail at a distance?

sure, you can buy a 29mp camera from avigilon, how much money do you have to spend?
You forget that the camera is using 264/265 compression.
His expectations are out of wack.

 

[J Sigmo]

What is the resolution of your DSLR? The DSLR that I have with only 8 megapixels, is a Canon 20D. This was a "breakthrough" in technology when it was introduced. It has an APS-C sized sensor, and pretty good low light performance. It basically opened up the DSLR field when it was introduced.

But things have moved ahead considerably since that time. Especially low light performance and pixel density.

I'll bet your DSLR has much higher resolution than 8 megapixels. It probably also has a fairly large sensor. APSC or larger.

Also, you almost certainly have a larger, higher quality lens than that of the security camera. If an 8 megapixel security camera that sells for $200 could do what your DSLR can do, your DSLR would also sell for around $200.

I'll bet that your DSLR and lens cost a bit more than that.

Also, remember that you're shooting video with the security camera, and that video is being compressed with a form of lossy compression. Your DSLR is shooting a still image, and can shoot in RAW most likely, or, if shooting a JPG, is set up to use much less "vigorous" compression.

The security camera likely has:

lower actual "megapixels" than your DSLR
a tiny, and lower quality lens system
a much smaller sensor
far greater image compression

You are expecting too much from the video camera. And this is in good light. At night, things will be even more disappointing. What you see on shows like CSI, etc., where they magically "enhance" crappy surveillance video is pure fantasy. Even with very sophisticated software, you are limited by the quality of the original image capture and the compression that has been used on that image.

Like everyone is saying:

For good license plate reading, you need a choke point or choke points that restrict the position and angle of the cars so that a camera can be set up to view the license plates from a more or less perpendicular angle, and with enough "zoom" to get a lot of pixels on the plate.

You also will need illumination such that you can always be shooting at a high shutter speed to eliminate motion blur, and ideally use a reasonable aperture to get good depth of field and sharpness.

But remember that, just as with your DSLR, if you use too small of an aperture, your images will then suffer from the blurring effects of diffraction. The smaller the sensor, the more pronounced the diffraction will be.

For an 8 megapixel APS-C sized sensor, you don't want to go smaller than f/11 or so or you begin to lose sharpness. For the tiny sensors in these security cameras, you need to stay even wider open. But helping you out is the fact that a smaller sensor gives inherently deeper DOF for any given aperture.

The old masters in the "f/64 club" were shooting with view cameras, often onto glass plates measuring 8" x 10". Now that's a big sensor!

We can't get away with that using 35mm film, or our smallish digital sensors. If you look at resolution graphs for various lenses, you'll often see that the sweet spot for sharpness is a few stops closed from wide open. f/5.6, for example, is often the area where a DSLR's lens may produce its sharpest images.

Anyhow, there's a lot to this. And a real lot to performing license plate reading. Don't believe what you see on CSI.

I have a program called Topaz AI Sharpen, that uses AI to "fill in the blanks" so to speak, so you can upsample digital images for making huge prints. It uses analysis of millions of images to "learn" what will look good to the human eye as it upsamples.

It's fantastic for this purpose.

But I've played with it to pull more detail from security camera frames, and while it can really help, it cannot magically "enhance" the way the fake stuff on CSI does. It makes mistakes that, while they make an image look good to the eye from an aesthetic point of view, they actually can reduce the ability to read text. To be fair, that's not what the program is designed to do.

Anyhow:

Good angle toward the license plate.
Good illumination
Close enough zoom to get enough pixels on the plate
Fast shutter speed
Properly selected aperture

That's what you need.

This is just like shooting with a DSLR. But you have to work with the real characteristics of the security camera.

 

[mat200]

Just to test it, I got up next to the camera with my DSLR just to see. I have attached 3 images, however these are all the same picture, just digitally zoomed. First is full image, 2nd is at 3x digital zoom, 3rd is at 5x digital zoom. I realize the original FOV isn't as wide, but the ability to retain detail is night and day.

HI @Dsmtweaker

OK - let's look at your specs on that Nikon 3100:

1. 
   
   Effective Pixels (Megapixels)
   
   14.2 million
2. 
   
   Sensor Size
   
   23.1 mm
   x 15.4 mm

( that's a diagonal of about 27.7mm )

SO 14MP, and a big sensor.. and a big lens... ( as J Sigmo and Fenderman notes... )

ok, the closest I could find off the Dahua USA site:

12MP True Day/Night IP Box
Model Number: NK8BA4
Series: 12MP, Box, Built-in Microphone, DWDR, Network Cameras, SD Card Slot, Ultra Series, Ultra Series : Network
The NK8BA4 network camera features Smart H.265+ video compression, reducing bandwidth and storage requirements without sacrificing video quality. The multi-pronged approach works by making reductions of useless or unimportant data wherever possible. As a result, high quality video is maintained without straining the network.

These cameras are embedded with an IR cut filter making them suitable for applications with varying lighting conditions and onboard intelligent video system analytics for a more efficient surveillance system. The built-in IVS features people counting and heat mapping functionality, advanced features that add business intelligence to your security system. Intelligent Analysis tracks and stores daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly people flow through a defined scene and produces a configurable report. The system uses this data to produce a Heat Map, a two-dimensional representation of data that provides an immediate visual summary of information. People Counting and Heat Mapping can identify the most active areas of a retail space providing valuable data analysis for commercial applications.

Description Additional information Documents
1/1.7-in. 12 MP Progressive Scan STARVISTM CMOS Sensor
Triple-stream Encoding
H.265 and H.264 Dual Codecs
12MP at 20 fps (4000 x 3000) and 4K at 30 fps (3840 x 2160)
Digital WDR, Day/Night (ICR), 3DNR, AWB, AGC, BLC
Multiple Network Monitoring: Web Viewer, CMS (DSS/PSS) and DMSS
Auto Back Focus (ABF)
Micro SD Memory, PoE
Intelligent Video System with Intelligent Business Analysis
*Lens sold separate

This is what you want.

We're in luck, B&H carries the body.. has it for only $740+ for just the body.. remember to pair it with a lens and a box to protect it from the elements.

Dahua Technology NK8BA4 Ultra Series 12MP DWDR Network Box Camera






it is a really nice camera... definitely far superior to that cheap-o one you're attempting to use right now... ( hmm, it still have a significantly smaller sensor.. so, you'll actually want to look for a model which has a sensor closer to the one in the DLSR.. )