First Time Cam/Security Install Planning

[Ethernaught]

Hi IPCT. Thanks for the warm welcome.

This seems like the most appropriate place to post my thread. If it's not, mods can move I guess. Please, correct me anywhere I'm wrong (ie: terms, etc.), make suggestions, and all that. I appreciate constructive criticism.

I'd love some assistance with the planning, and execution of my first home security installation. I've been needing to do this, and thinking about it for a couple years probably. As I mentioned in my intro thread, the day before joining here I'd ordered an RLN8-410 NVR and an RLC-811A from amazon.ca. I immediately learned I'd messed up.

I'd thought I would basically have to have two separate "systems"; a camera system, and an intrusion alarm system. Very recently I'd decided to get something going with Reolink because it'd be plug and play, affordable, and because the intrusion alarm system I'd decided on attempting would've been using home assistant and it first required me to learn how to do that(!), so it'd be a while before I had anything setup.

Here's what my 'goals' are as of now, subject to change, because I'm kinda back to the beginning with this whole thing now.

The neighborhood is going to shit. I'm concerned to leave the house unattended. I have an older relative living here too. There's a rise in break-ins, including neighbors on either side of us (houses are joined on the sides). The more I talk to neighbors, the more I hear about it.
If someone is casing the house/neighbors house, or the street, by foot or car, I'd like to know and be able to make them aware of that, ideally. If someone attempts to break in at all (window, door, etc.), I'd like for me and the whole block to know, hah. And I'd like for them to immediately have to leave due to the attention drawn. But I'd also for the property to suggest "this is a bad place to try and break in".

Cameras:
-Good low light ability
-Wired
-Motion clarity
-Notifications (text/email)
-Active deterrence -bonus (Maybe a siren, either the cams or the intrusion alarm have to have this, or both)
-Two way audio would be nice
-AI - human/vehicle detection (I don't want to know when leaves fall, and shadows of trees move)
-Ability to identify (this is an image quality attribute, right?), "high" resolution
-Suitable for the climate/weather conditions (Canada; snow, lots of rain, moderate cold - temps fluctuate from above and below 0*C in a given day - freeze/thaw - and creates ice statues of everything, humid.). I'm concerned about fogging up, for one.
-I don't want some device that's "phoning home"
-If one of the cameras could make out a license plate, that would also be great.

Alarm System: (I don't know much about them).
-Self monitored and DIY'able
-Inside and Outside sirens (loud, 120+DB)
-Intrusion (fire isn't on my mind)
-mix of window/door, motion and glass break sensors (anything else?)
-If the alarm system and the camera system can work together that would be ideal
-From what I've gathered, I don't think I mind if these sensors are wireless

I have some background in electrical (commercial, little residential), and I'm able to and enjoy diy'ing things - though the older I get the less time and energy I have for it, not to mention fitness, haha. I've terminated RJ45 pass throughs once or twice. I've ran/fished conduit and wire.

In the next post I will give some details about the property.

 

[wittaj]

In your original thread, I linked this thread below I created that will answer all of your camera related questions, including the cameras to get to read plates, the active deterrence cams, etc. You will need a VMS like BI or an NVR if you want text/sms capabilities without the cameras phoning home.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[sebastiantombs]

An alarm system is really easy. All it is, basically, is a simple series circuit. Modern alarm systems are more complex though. Line supervision is a nice feature but requires four wires to each switch/detector and an EOL, End Of Line, resistor. They also need to be programmed so they know what's hooked up where in terms of zones. Zones make it easy to see what detector is tripped or to trouble shoot if something goes wrong. Self monitoring is easy to set up and can include a cell connection for backup, the normal method now is via Internet connection.

I would seriously consider a few fire detectors, smoke or rate of rise, given that your in an attached situation with other on each side. I've seen too many bad stories about loss of life in those kinds of housing arrangements here in the city of Philadelphia and New York City. A few bucks, probably under $200USD additional, is a small price to pay to be protected.

Again, the two way audio is a gimmicky thing at best. I know you've probably seen Ring commercials with their audio features. Surveillance cameras are not quite the same thing. There's a member here, fairly experienced, and he's struggling to get two-way audio working on a single camera. I've fooled with it thinking it was a great thing, and found out it ain't so great after all.

 

[Ethernaught]

Property:

The block is triangular, with two sides having rows of houses, most of which are connected to each other. The third side is a street with no houses directly on or coming off it. This is of note because the houses on both sides of the block have back yards, but just beyond the back yards is an unkept, non-private (city) area, which in the warm season is dense with foliage/bushes/weeds and there's all kind of junk back there. It's accessible from the third side with no houses, no fence to get in it or anything.
Obviously people (unfortunate) sometimes hang there (there's evidence), and it's a great place to case every single home on the two streets from a hidden vantage, and get right into the back yards (it's happened).

Approximate measurements:

House is 22'W x 35'L. Three floors; from the front side it's about 20' to roof - the basement is below ground, but from the back side the basement is fully above ground (if that makes sense) and I suppose about 30' to roof. The back has a deck on each level, and one could very easily reach ever single level and entry point on that side of the house.
The back yard itself is about the same measurements as the house. There's no front yard, just a sidewalk and small buffer; 8' to the street.
There's not much of an eve or soffit area to mount much.

I hope you like my drawings (H = House, Y = Yard):



Any questions, please ask.
Edit: First and third pic need rotating 90* to the right, I didn't know how to do it here though.

 

[Ethernaught]

In your original thread, I linked this thread below I created that will answer all of your camera related questions, including the cameras to get to read plates, the active deterrence cams, etc. You will need a VMS like BI or an NVR if you want text/sms capabilities without the cameras phoning home.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

Ok. I was going through another one. I'll prioritize this one^ first though.

 

[Ethernaught]

An alarm system is really easy. All it is, basically, is a simple series circuit. Modern alarm systems are more complex though. Line supervision is a nice feature but requires four wires to each switch/detector and an EOL, End Of Line, resistor. They also need to be programmed so they know what's hooked up where in terms of zones. Zones make it easy to see what detector is tripped or to trouble shoot if something goes wrong. Self monitoring is easy to set up and can include a cell connection for backup, the normal method now is via Internet connection.

Are you talking wired here (seeing as you said series circuit)? I happened up a thread or post of yours talking alarms; alarmgrid, honeywell, some other stuff - I bookmarked it. But yea, I have no experience.

I would seriously consider a few fire detectors, smoke or rate of rise, given that your in an attached situation with other on each side. I've seen too many bad stories about loss of life in those kinds of housing arrangements here in the city of Philadelphia and New York City. A few bucks, probably under $200USD additional, is a small price to pay to be protected.

It's already happened, actually, at a different but similar home. Luckily wasn't too bad. Don't forget, $200USD is about $850CAD...(just kidding?). I'm guessing, from ignorance and pessimism, that going away from reolink to something proper is gonna double or triple(?) the cost of doing this - the cameras I mean. Maybe I'm wrong.

Again, the two way audio is a gimmicky thing at best. I know you've probably seen Ring commercials with their audio features. Surveillance cameras are not quite the same thing. There's a member here, fairly experienced, and he's struggling to get two-way audio working on a single camera. I've fooled with it thinking it was a great thing, and found out it ain't so great after all.

Copy that. I just thought being able to tell that obvious looking, lingering cretin that he's been spoted.

Thank you.

Replies in body ^.

 

[Holbs]

DSC 18xx Series is a fantastic DIY alarm system. There are newer models but then you get into compatibility issues with various equipment (I believe, not backward compatible for some items).
Sure, you can go the wireless route. I didn't want to have knobby plastic squares visible on every door & window so I hard wired them so the sensors are flush and invisible. Yep, that means holes in the wall & ceiling to run sensor cables. You 'could' surface mount the wire and staple / paint them in corners if you were not too particular with the look.

I went with both the DSC 1864 with NIC card to interface to my network. I also have a Blue Iris server machine. They both talk to each other via Home Assistant home automation. But that's another story

 

[Ethernaught]

After my last post, I went and read the suggested threads (focal length, typical image from pro-sumer / typical image from consumer cameras, and large portions of some dahua/reolink ones). I've been taking notes. Then I took two days off from looking at a computer screen.

I've been taking the time over the past week or more, going through the Wiki - Cliff Notes - reading anything that I thought would help me "progress" to some stage where I might be able to make some sort of decision and/or start purchasing stuff.

Well, it feels like I'm studying for an exam that's the next day, knowing there's no way it'll change my grade/success. I'm learning terms, I'm getting some things, but I'm no closer to do anything.
Am I supposed to read the entire wiki? Now, I'm thinking it's totally unrealistic to expect to have any cams up before winter. I'm feeling as though I'll just keep reading, and taking notes, watching videos, until I realize I'm wasting time and not getting anywhere.

It sounds like many of those here who've attained a level of competancy at this, made costly mistakes on the way (time, money, etc.). I'd like to avoid those, if possible. That's one reason that I'm here.

Is there some sort of logical process to approach this with? Ex: FIRST - get an idea of the max number of cams you'll want. SECOND - blah blah. THIRD - now you can choose a machine for BI, knowing you'll need 'x' processor, etc.. FOURTH - Determine distances from desired camera location to desired "object"/area, to determine the Recognize or Identify number/distance. ETC.

Do I just pick a varifocal camera whose range is at/more than I need, some bulk network cable, connectors/tools, choose pc for BI (based of an overestimate of what I'll need), order all that and start playing with walking around and temp. mouting it around the house on a 200ft length of cable?

I'm trying not to get frustrated here.

 

[wittaj]

Yep, many of us have made the mistakes you are trying to avoid. Myself included. I have a box full of crap cameras that didn't even make it year - either they died or an event happened and I saw how crappy they were.

That is why I created the focal length over MP thread - it summarizes very quickly for the NOOB on what the common cameras most folks use here and for what purpose and distance. Many have simply ran with that and have been happy with their results. Then we have the wiki and other threads for those that want to get into the weeds and see all the testing and comparisons for themselves.

I think your thoughts are spot on. Get one varifocal and test it all around the house to get a feel for what it will cover.

Looking at your drawing, you won't go wrong with the 5442-ZE. Test and probably install in that 8 foot height range and you are good to go. Any higher and you will get tops of heads and hoodies.

As far as computer, with the substreams option now available, you can make a cheap 4th gen work. You don't have to go expensive. It will run more cameras than you will install.

Looking at your drawing, you could probably get a couple of 5442 fixed lens like a 3.6 or 2.8mm that you could place higher and give you a great overview (just recognize it will not IDENTIFY) and then use the varifocals zoomed in to pinch points to get the IDENTIFY.

And remember, you do not need to do this all at once. Get a few up and then let things settle a few days and get someone in the house or a neighbor kid to walk around the house and find the weak spots and then add more cameras as needed.

 

[Swampledge]

I got started with a 2nd gen i7 and a $60 Amcrest camera. I’m now running 8 cameras on that same machine, using Deepstack on 1 during the day and 2 at night. You can only learn so much by understanding “theory.” Get a box, POE switch, and a camera and start playing around with it. The only money I wasted was on Nest WiFi cameras before I discovered IPCT.

 

[sebastiantombs]

If you have a PC with a browser you can get one varifocal camera, mount it to a test rig, five gallon bucket full of stones or sand with a 2x4-8' sticking up to mount the camera to, a long ethernet cable, say 200 feet, and a PoE injector to be able to test locations and focal lengths for anywhere you might think you want a camera around your house. The camera video can be accessed simply by typing in the IP address of the camera, assuming it's on the same network schema as your PC. If not there are several ways to get the camera onto your network. Doing this will also let you learn abut the camera and all the settings it has to optimize the video during both day and night before you invest in a PC for running Blue Iris, a PoE switch, bulk cable, pulling wires and all the other things needed to get a full system up and running.

If your PC is running Windows you can also download the trial version of Blue Iris and test drive that as well. Overall minimal investment up front and a great way do some real, hands-on, learning.

 

[Holbs]

It took me 2 months to begin my camera journey. At first, the general Google search that 95% of all reviews pointed me towards were the likes of Arlo, Ring, the typical low budget cameras. I think it was through some reddit home defense page that brought me to IPCT site. The wealth of information here that is shared is of quality, experience, and realistic over years from hundreds of amateur and professional installers. It does take a while to dig through everything.
You are on the right track by starting with Wiki and asking questions.

 

[Swampledge]

…. Get a few up and then let things settle a few days and get someone in the house or a neighbor kid to walk around the house and find the weak spots and then add more cameras as needed.

One of the great things about Blue Iris is that you can be that “someone” or “neighbor kid.” Position a camera, then, with BI set up to record it, walk around like an intruder. You can then sit at the console and experiment with different motion detection settings on that clip. Or, if you use a camera with AI, you can just give yourself more exercise testing the settings until you’re happy. And, you should feel safe buying a 5442-ZE. Anyone with multiple cameras has a spot where that camera, with it‘s adjustable focal length, is the right one. Plus, it will give you real world, first hand experience for testing what focal length is best for various parts of your place.

 

[Ethernaught]

Thank you all for your replies.
Question; the wiki has an international model decoding chart, and a link to dahua u.s. models (which has three images; two "new camera" charts, and one "old camera" chart). The image of the chart is almost identical to the "old camera" image on the dahua u.s. site. But, it looks like there are differences between all of them.
Usually, I'm pretty good at getting an understanding of model codes when I need to. But there are some differences in these. When I see a model listed here on ipct, eg: 5442-ZE, and I search that, I see:

IPC-HDW5442T-ZE
IPC-HFW5442E-ZE
IPC-HFW5442H-ZE
IPC-T5442T-ZE
IPC-D5442E-ZE
IPC-HDBW5442E-ZE
IPC-HDBW5442H-ZE

Going by the chart in the wiki, some terms like "case secquence" I don't know what they mean. Some models seem to have two dashes with letter or digits after them (not including the dash right after "IPC"). eg: 5442TM-AS-LED.
The "function" letter shows "0" and "1", but doesn't have "2", so I wouldn't know what the "2" in "5442" denotes.

Edit: I get that some of the differences (most? all? haha) are form factor/"type". But for example, I don't see a "T" listed under the "camera type" section...
Sorry, I'm maybe missing something simple...

 

[Ethernaught]

I am/will try and figure it out. And if I have a more specific model question I'll ask then. Thanks guys.

 

[mattp]

I am/will try and figure it out. And if I have a more specific model question I'll ask then. Thanks guys.

Scroll down to the last two posts here:

Dahua model number letters

[Solved]Dahua model number letters I've tried to find what the different letters mean on the Dahua website that make each IP camera different and not even Dahua themselves can help me after the e-mail being forwarded to at least three different people. does anyone have a list that explains what...

ipcamtalk.com

I think the difference may be mostly that some of them are turrets, domes, and bullets, as well as how many and type of infrared lights.

 

[mattp]

Just want to add that I just buy whichever one @EMPIRETECANDY is selling. He usually doesn't carry more than one type of 5442 bullet (at least new, if he's got refurbished then sometimes older models are available). They may vary in the amount of zoom, but the ones you list I think Andy only carries one 5442 ZE bullet. He also carries a 5442 ZE turret, but it'll depend on which you need where.

If you are considering Dahua cameras, I strongly recommend getting them from Andy. You may be able to find cheaper versions, but you will be getting unknown firmware....That is unless you want to spend full price and get brand name Dahua cameras.

 

[Ethernaught]

Just want to add that I just buy whichever one @EMPIRETECANDY is selling. He usually doesn't carry more than one type of 5442 bullet (at least new, if he's got refurbished then sometimes older models are available). They may vary in the amount of zoom, but the ones you list I think Andy only carries one 5442 ZE bullet. He also carries a 5442 ZE turret, but it'll depend on which you need where.

If you are considering Dahua cameras, I strongly recommend getting them from Andy. You may be able to find cheaper versions, but you will be getting unknown firmware....That is unless you want to spend full price and get brand name Dahua cameras.

Thanks man. What are the Loryta brands that show up when searching amazon for empiretech or when I search something similar to "5442", for example? Do you know? A "knock off" of dahua, or something?

Edit: THIS answered the Loryta question I think.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Andy is definitely the goto guy for Dahua cameras. They are marketed by him as Loryata or EmpirTech for a brand name but they are OEM International versions of Dahua through and through. Andy works with Dahua pretty extensively on camera firmware with one member of IPCT in particular to refine and improve firmware. The firmware he lists as the newest and best may not even show up on the Dahua website. He also stands behind everything he sells. I got a dud, one time, and I had a replacement in under a week, from Hong Kong! He is in Hong Kong and can ship from there, but also has a presence on Amazon as well as an Alibaba store. Shipping from Amazon is very fast and many times if you order directly from him it will actually ship from Amazon making it even faster.

Andy
IPCT Thread

EmpireTech Andy

Dahua products

ipcamtalk.com

Andy's Store

Amazon.com

King Security/EmpireTech Store

Amazon.com

Email
Andy Wang kingsecurity2014@163.com

 

[Ethernaught]

Thank you @sebastiantombs. Gonna contact him re: shipping. Bear in mind, I'm in canada (so nothing is straight forward).
Looks like the "boobie" cam is back in stock. I just wanted to say boobie cam.