Head Spinning, but Grateful

[googler]

Hi folks,

Thanks for all of the information, very useful resource you have here. I would like something modular that I can upgrade over time into a more robust system. It doesn't need to be perfect, but I'd like a system with some room for growth that I can upgrade over time. We haven't had any incidents and we're in an area that doesn't have any more crime than any other smallish Midwestern US city. That said, eight cameras I'm thinking is a minimum, just for deterrence/cosmetics, as it's a good size property.

I took in a lot reading over this site, so I just want to make sure I'm thinking right about this.

I will not be installing the wiring, but I'm pretty capable as far as networking, adding storage, swapping hardware, troubleshooting software, etc.

My electrician suggested this, which is available at our local electronics store:
Night Owl - 16 Channel 8 Camera 1080p HD Indoor/Outdoor Wired DVR Surveillance System with 1TB Hard Drive - Black/White
ModelP2-161-8L

Seems to me that this is a sufficient cosmetic/deterrent solution, but after reading up here I'd be better off with a PoE system, as PoC will likely not be compatible with other systems. He's going to be installing the cable, and I'd rather that be right for the long haul, since wiring in a 100+ year-old house will probably cost more than any system I'm likely to have initially. So Ethernet is probably my best option. As I find the need/resources for a more robust system I can then add cameras one at a time (starting with something like the one reviewed here, which will give me a good idea of various focal lengths) and the CAT5 can be split (or doubled during installation, which was a great suggestion from the Cliffs).

So, I'm thinking an all-in-one Amcrest, like this one. I run Macs and Ubuntu exclusively, so BI is not a good option.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[SouthernYankee]

Night owl is not a very good product. Most kits are not very good, they cut corners to keep the price down. You say expandability then start talking about kits. think of BI as an NVR not windows.

Start with one good quality variable focus camera. Verify the camera placement and the lens selection. Test at night with motion, have a "bad Guy" walk by the camera 20 ft out. Can you ID the "bad Guy" will it help the cops , will it strand up in court. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.

Use a low voltage electrician if you can not install the ethernet cables your self. Cost depends on were you live, cost is between $50-$150 per drop.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My standard welcome to the forum message.

Read Study Plan before spending money
Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact.

Please read the IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes and other items in the IP Cam Talk Wiki. (read on a real computer, not a phone). The wiki is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

Read How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!) in the wiki also.


Quick start
1) If you do not have a wired monitored alarm system, get that first
2) Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras if you need good low light cameras.
3) Start with a good variable focus camera, so you test for the correct lens,lighting, camera placement.
4) use a VPN to access home network (openVPN)
5) Do not use wifi cameras.
6) Do not use cloud storage
7) Do Not use uPNP, P2P, QR, do not open ports,
8) More megapixel is not necessarily better.
9) Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))
10) Do not use reolink, ring, nest, Arlo, Vivint cameras (they are junk), no cloud cameras
11) If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
12) Use only solid copper, AWG 23 or 24 ethernet wire. , no CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum)
13) use a test mount to verify the camera mount location. My test rig: rev.2
14) (Looney2ns)If you want to be able to ID faces, don't mount cams higher than 7ft. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
15) Use a router that has openVPN built in (Most ASUS, Some NetGear....)
16) camera placement use the calculator... IPVM Camera Calculator V3
17) POE list PoE Switch Suggestion List
18) Camera Sensor size, bigger is general better Sensor Size Chart
19) Camera lens size, a bigger number give more range but less field of view. Which Security Camera Lens Size Should I Buy?
20) verify your camera placement, have a friend wearing a hoodie, ball cap and sunglasses looking down approach the house, can you identify them at night ?
21) DO NOT UPGRADE your NVR or camera unless you absolutely have a problem that needs to be fixed and known what you are doing, if you do you will turn it into a brick !!

Cameras to look at
IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED . Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+) - 4MP starlight
.................... Dahua IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED review
IPC-T5442TM-AS ..... Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ - 4MP starlight+
IPC-HDW5442t-ZE .... Dahua IPC-HDW5442T-ZE 4MP Varifocal Turret - Night Perfomance testing -- variable focus 2.7 mm-12mm 4 MP Starlight
IPC-B5442E-ZE ...... Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+ -- variable 2.7mm-12mm bullet
IPC-B5442E-Z4E .... bullet 8mm-32mm variable focus zoom 4MP
IPC-HFW7442H-Z ..... Review - Dahua IPC-HFW7442H-Z 4MP Ultra AI Varifocal Bullet Camera -- 4 MP variable focus AI
IPC-T2347G-LU ...... Review of the Hikvision OEM model IPC-T2347G-LU 'ColorVu' IP CCTV camera. (DS-2CD2347G1-LU)
IPC-HDW2231R-ZS .... Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal
IPC-HDW2231T-ZS-S2 . Review-OEM IPC-T2231T-ZS Ver 2, 2mp Varifocal Starlight Camera
IPC-HDW5231R-ZE .... Review-Dahua Starlight IPC-HDW5231R-ZE 800 meter capable ePOE
IPC-HFW4239T-ASE ... IPC-HFW4239T-ASE
IPCT-HDW5431RE-I ... Review - IP Cam Talk 4 MP IR Fixed Turret Network Camera
IPC-T5241H-AS-PV ... Review-OEM IPC-T5241H-AS-PV 2mp AI active deterrence cam
IPC-T3241-ZAS ...... Review-OEM IPC-T3241-ZAS 2mp AI Lite series Varifocal -- 2mp AI Lite series Varifocal
IPC-HFW2831T-ZS ... Review-Dahua IPC-HFW2831T-ZS 8MP WDR IR Bullet Network Camera -- 8MP Bullet 1/1.8” sensor variable focus.
DS-2CD2325FWD-I
N22AL12 ............ New Dahua N22AL12 Budget Cam w/Starlight -- low cost entry
IPC-T2347G-LU....... Review-Loryta OEM 4MP IPC-T2347G-LU ColorVu Fixed Turret Network 4mm lens & Junction Box -- 4MP ColorVu
.................... Review of the Hikvision OEM model IPC-T2347G-LU 'ColorVu' IP CCTV camera.


My preferred indoor cameras
DS-2CD2442FWD-IW
IPC-K35A Review-Dahua IPC-K35A 3mp Cube Camera
IPC-K42A

Read,study,plan before spending money ..... plan plan plan
Doing it right the first time will save you money.
Test do not guess

 

[wittaj]

Too many people go to the local box store and get fascinated with the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" like a Reolink or Arlo or Lorex or NightOwl can provide and chase megapixels. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them. And how much additional light is needed at night (when it matters most) for a 4k camera. There currently isn't an economical 8MP/sensor combination at the moment that any would recommend.

Take a look at this chart - to identify someone with the 2.8mm lens popular in the kits, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 box-kit cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police. Reolinks are even worse than these at night - he tried those first and sent back to get Arlos....and a year later he is regretting that choice too.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4k Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results and fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him.

Don't discount Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is a stripped down computer after all....and isn't true plug-n-play like people believe. You still have to dial the cameras into your setting. Once you do that, might as well go with something that has the best chance of working with many different camera brands. And I have found Blue Iris to be more robust and easier than an NVR. As always, YMMV...

When I was looking at NVRs, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal, and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR. You don't need to buy components and build one.

Many of these refurbished computers are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

NVRs from the box units like a Amcrest and Lorex cap out incoming bandwidth (which impacts the resolution and FPS of the cameras). The Lorex and Amcrest NVR maxes out at 80Mbps and truly only one or a couple cameras that will display 4K. My neighbors was limited to that and he is all upset it isn't 4K for all eight channels and he was capped out at 4096 bitrate on each camera so it was a pixelated mess.

Main keys are you can't locate too high or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who. Also, do not chase marketing phrases like ColorVu and Full Color and the like - all cameras need light - simple physics...

 

[looney2ns]

Buy once, cry once. Don't fall for the inexpensive kits. My neighbor just had a NightOwl system installed against my advice, to put it mildly, it's crap.

BI needs to run on a dedicated machine, which can be had for $200 or less.
Choosing Hardware for Blue Iris | IP Cam Talk

With BI, you don't have to worry about keeping the Cam the same brand as the NVR, with an NVR, you do.

Study this, then study it again. Cliff Notes.

 

[googler]

With BI, you don't have to worry about keeping the Cam the same brand as the NVR, with an NVR, you do.

I was under the impression that the Amcrest NVR would support other brand cameras (it's just a re-branded Dahua, I thought). from the Cliffs Notes:

Any dedicated manufacturer NVR should match the cameras, as each vendor has proprietary advanced features beyond the ONVIF specifications.

So, shouldn't I be able to use this Loryta branded Dahua with the Amcrest NVR?

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-B5442E-Z4E-Starlight-8mm-32mm-Motorized/dp/B07ZGF9BRW

Or am I misunderstanding that part of the Cliffs? Does it mean that any dedicated manufacturer's NVR should match their own cameras (but not other brands' cameras) to meet advanced features beyond ONVIF?

And I don't think the $1200 Amcrest is an inexpensive kit for a starter system. The Night Owl my electrician suggested is $400. If both are going to be equally ineffective then I'll just get the Night Owl. Or ADT signs.

I honestly don't think most of you folks read my post. I'm wiling to spend more, but don't have the time to work out the best focal lengths for each location. I just want a system that's expandable, and the one thing I can't do myself is the wiring in the building. I'd like to get to that point where I can choose the best camera for each location, but I don't want to screw it up by getting the wrong wiring upfront. Right now, I'm at the wiring point, and I want to make sure that I get a working system that can be upgraded without getting another wiring job done.

Maybe I should've explained my situation a little better: my father died a month ago and no one is living in his apartment, which is above his storefront business on a busy street. He was very well known in the neighborhood and everyone knew of his passing. He operated the business for fifty years and now it's pretty obvious that no one is there at night.

I work at the business and I'm there every day, but I go home (different town, fifteen miles away) at five and the building is empty with no security for ~16 hours a day. Neighborhood is typical of an old rust belt small city. Lot of lower middle class folks, good number of immigrants. Folks from his generation have made suggestions: maybe you should park a car in the lot overnight, for example, which I've started doing. They worry about the property and the business. We've had no incidents, and I'm really just looking for a deterrent to start out with: visible cameras. It's a large building, ~5,000 sq. ft., on about a third of an acre, including the parking lot.

So, long term, I'm going to need to invest. And when that time comes, I'll probably do my own PC build and find the oldest version of Windows that BI or similar software will run on. And by that time the estate will be settled and we'll probably be living there.

Short term, I just want to put something in that isn't going to be a bottleneck when it's time to upgrade. I don't want to have to run wires behind the 100-year old molding, for example, when it's time to upgrade to a custom PC/NVR with 32 channels.

But right now I don't have time between running the business and dealing with estate stuff. For real, this is not in my top fifty priorities. But what's important to me is not that the tech is the best (it's going to be second best in six or three months, anyway) or that I go all NCIS on some bad guy, but that I do something visible to show that we are attempting to secure the building without making a major mistake and having to do a wiring job again in the future (when, indeed I am going to want the best protection/most robust system/and absolutely go all NCIS on the creep that messes with our property), which means my question is really about wiring:

I should say no to Coaxial, right?

 

[googler]

Night owl is not a very good product. Most kits are not very good, they cut corners to keep the price down. You say expandability then start talking about kits. think of BI as an NVR not windows.

Start with one good quality variable focus camera. Verify the camera placement and the lens selection. Test at night with motion, have a "bad Guy" walk by the camera 20 ft out. Can you ID the "bad Guy" will it help the cops , will it strand up in court. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.

Use a low voltage electrician if you can not install the ethernet cables your self. Cost depends on were you live, cost is between $50-$150 per drop.

This is kind of what I'm thinking for a year down the road. Right now, I want to put in a system that won't make that totally impossible without tearing apart walls.

I didn't think the Night Owl was very good and doing some googling led me here, and got my head spinning.

I am not a wiring/molding/sheetrock/plaster guy and if I was I would do my own wiring. I re-did the Romex in my home, where I'm less concerned with optics, but I wouldn't touch it in the business, where everything needs to look perfect. So, I want to get the wiring right. I can always swap out the NVR for a custom PC with BI and individually chosen cameras with varying focal lengths and sensors. but that's absolutely not happening realistically right now.

Right now I don't have time for all the focal length testing and fine tuning adjustments for placement...

I need an all in one system, preferably 8-10 cameras, that I can eventually expand to 16 or 32 cameras by swapping out the hardware without doing any rewiring in the future. The best suggestion for my situation was this one in the Cliffs:

In general, pull an extra category cable to each location where a device is planned, and leave a bit of extra slack on both ends of the cable, just in case you need to adjust placement.

Such a good idea to run a redundant cable for future expandability.

I will get to that point where I can get a multifocal camera, test placements, focal lengths, and resolutions in different light scenarios... but that's a good year away, realistically. Maybe even two years.

I've been on this site for two days reading great stuff, but a lot of it is far beyond my capabilities (time or money).

Right now I need to put in something--ANYTHING--that will not make me have to deal with the building wiring part of it when that time comes.

I understand that it won't be the best that I can do but that's an unfortunate side effect of having other things that are more pressing. Eventually I will be able to A/B test focal lengths for different purposes and choose the camera with the largest sensor size... It's a large property on a hill, so there are challenges.

So, thanks for the tough love, but ease up. I'm nowhere near falling in love with any hardware or All-in-One "System."

I'm just trying to figure out how to get an old coal baron's house wired in a way that's as close to future-proof as possible.

 

[googler]

In re-reading my initial post I think my mistake was saying that I want a "system" that is modular, without identifying that the biggest part of the "system" for me was the wiring in the building.

I'm considering the building wiring part of the system (more important than specific camera or NVR capabilities), because that's the most inaccessible part to me (or for me to DIY change).

I want future-proof wiring, because this old building is a bear to get behind.

Doubling up the CAT5 and the posts about PoE extenders/expanders have been very useful.

So, my concerns at this point are really about wiring, and I think I've found the answer (Ethernet) in the Wiki and Cliffs. Thanks

 

[googler]

Like, is there anyone here that uses or would recommend a coax wired system if you were going to have your house wired for future expansion?

I think not. But I'd like to hear from you if you do.

 

[wittaj]

Sorry to hear about your father passing.

The statement about matching camera and NVR brand is a good practice, and you are right that Amcrest=Lorex=Dahua=QSee=a number of brands. But that could change at any moment.

The best advice I can give is do not buy fixed lens cams unless you know for sure it will cover what you want. If it is an overview camera that you can see what is going on around you but not be able to IDENTIFY someone, then a fixed lens is a good choice. If the person will be within 10 feet of the camera, then a fixed lens is a good choice.

Otherwise, your best bet is to get a varifocal camera that you optically zoom to get the area you are trying to cover. These are a set it and forget it zoom and not changing the zoom all the time trying to watch things, that is what a PTZ is for.

As an example, a 2.8mm fixed lens like from Night Owl or most of these kits installed at the back of the store ceiling aimed at the front door to ID people is a bad choice. It makes a good overview camera.

If the end goal of a camera at the back of the store on the ceiling is to identify people coming thru the front door, then you need a varifocal that you can optically zoom in to just the front door.

The Night Owl system will not let you change the shutter speed. Why is this important. Do you want to IDENTIFY people or just being able to tell the police "Oh someone broke in at 2:30am but it looks like a ghost" because that is what will happen with boxed kit cameras and other consumer grade that you can buy at a big box store. When you cannot change the shutter speed and it is dark and their is motion, the auto shutter creates motion blur because they have the speed so slow that you cannot capture motion well. But the static image looks good, but we need motion.

You want to pull ethernet wiring. Cost difference usually isn't an issue, so for true expand-ability, go with the most recent version that you can purchase, but no older than Cat6 if possible. Also make sure it is pure copper and not CCA (copper clad/coated aluminum)

Sometimes we have to go with what we have. I started with an old coax kit system. A few of the runs were difficult so I still use it with an adapter to convert the run to ethernet. But I certainly would not recommend wiring new that way. Future proof is ethernet and has been for many years.

Regarding motion blur, here is a camera that many will purchase thinking it is an upgrade from box kits. This is an example from their marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy any system that you cannot change the shutter speed. Could this provide anything useful for the police? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:

Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you

 

[samplenhold]

I honestly don't think most of you folks read my post. I'm wiling to spend more, but don't have the time to work out the best focal lengths for each location. I just want a system that's expandable, and the one thing I can't do myself is the wiring in the building. I'd like to get to that point where I can choose the best camera for each location, but I don't want to screw it up by getting the wrong wiring upfront. Right now, I'm at the wiring point, and I want to make sure that I get a working system that can be upgraded without getting another wiring job done.

You have gotten good feedback here by members with experience. You may not like their recommendations, but you asked.

As far as the Amcrest kit you linked to, it is not as expandable as you might think as it has only 8 ports and it comes with 8 cams. Those cams are all 8MP on 1/2.7" sensors which will suck at night since there is a lot of pixels on a small sensor. They also have 2.8mm lenses, which is fine for an overview, but will not ID a face at any distance other than very close. This is covered in the Cliff Notes.

Running the wiring all up front without testing the location is a recipe for failure. You have no idea how a cam will perform at each location if you pre-wire without testing that position. You may get lucky, but most do not.

Some of the problems newbies run into is chasing megapixels, going for a kit that is a marketing ploy since they are 2.8mm and 8MP cams, mounting too high, and not testing the cam positions prior to running cables.

Now if all you want is to feel good about getting some cams up and really do not care for getting views that would help ID a perp, then by all means continue down the path you have selected. It is hard for members here to advise you to do something they themselves would never do. If you have an incident and don't get a good useable shot, you will be pissed. Or like the guy down the street that installed several Ring cams and got blurry video of the person pilfering through his truck. His wife said, basically "You spent a grand on those cams and you can't even tell if it is a guy or girl?"

In this day and age, there is very little deterrence value in cams. I have seen many videos where perps flip the bird at cams while doing their special crimes.

 

[looney2ns]

Here is a recent example of what you don't want.
This was posted on the NextDoor app today, wanting someone to help ID the car that knocked down a mail box. Yeah, good luck with that.
If you don't have a monitored alarm system, that is the first thing to do.