It also could have been hydraulic shock. A high speed projectile, ~2500fps or higher, hitting a high water content area will cause a pretty significant shockwave. The bicep, even in Arnold when in his prime, isn't all that big. Think about what you see in ballistic gelatin, the white area just inside where the bullet impacts is that shockwave.
Exactly. An FMJ bullet hitting ballistics gel and roughly maintaining trajectory through it will generate a massive cavitation effect from that shock wave. The appearance of that cavitation is not proof that the bullet is "tumbling".
They were FMJ. This was confirmed at trial.Being a civilian, Rittenhouse was more than likley using civilllian ammunition which means holllow points. The question is whether or not the bullet caused the damage through expansion or shear tearing force. I'm inclined to think because of the close range shear force as it was near point blank and the biceps is relatively loose flesh just like the bowels of an animal, and the high velocity and relativey low resistance at near muzzle probably reduced the chance of expansion thus making tearing of the loose flesh more likely. However, I could be wrong. It could have expanded in part or in whole. We'll never know because even if recovered, the impact with whatever ultimately stopped it, wall, tree etc, will have expanded it anyway.
You have mentioned that Rittenhouse most likely had hollow points a couple of times. @fenderman says they were not, as stated during the trial. I'm guessing your mistake on this point is due to the scarcity of guns in Europe, and relying on book knowledge.Being a civilian, Rittenhouse was more than likley using civilllian ammunition which means holllow points. The question is whether or not the bullet caused the damage through expansion or shear tearing force. I'm inclined to think because of the close range shear force as it was near point blank and the biceps is relatively loose flesh just like the bowels of an animal, and the high velocity and relativey low resistance at near muzzle probably reduced the chance of expansion thus making tearing of the loose flesh more likely. However, I could be wrong. It could have expanded in part or in whole. We'll never know because even if recovered, the impact with whatever ultimately stopped it, wall, tree etc, will have expanded it anyway.
The amount of hydrostatic shock generated by an FMJ is a fraction of what a hollow point generates. Also don't assume because something is designated fmj it doesn't have a hollow point. There;s what are known as jacketed hollow points the point of which is the jacket controls the ecpansion so instead of achieving explosive fragmentation as you see with Varmint bullet designs, the head of the bullet expands controllably, typically to 1.5-2 times it's original size. A deer hunting bullet would be a typical example. A true FMJ would be a solid bullet with a copper wrap.
Anyone with experience of shooting will know when shooting animals, a true solid bullet will tend to drill a hole straight through and although it doesn't necessarily mean you won't kill, you could hit vital blood vessels or organs, the chance of killing is reduced. This is the reason hunters nearly always use hollow points. They're more humanedue to hydrostatic shock. For the same reason, civillian police and self defence rounds tend to be hollow points - maximum stopping power. The military can't use hollow points because they are banned under international treaty.
There are also two type of shock cavity temporary and permanent. Temporary represents the damage done to flesh by bursting some of the cells but sufficient survive to ensure the flesh itself stays relatively intact, just damaged. Permanent is the damage caused by the hydrostatic shock completely destroying the cells leaving a permanent cavity in the body where the flesh was either vaporised, had all the cell walls completely destroyed cuasing the cells to collapse, or blown out the back of the animal by the hydrostatic shockwave's force. Typically the latter is what happens to loose objetcs in the body such as bowels.
However, this is all moot.
Being a civilian, Rittenhouse was more than likley using civilllian ammunition which means holllow points. The question is whether or not the bullet caused the damage through expansion or shear tearing force. I'm inclined to think because of the close range shear force as it was near point blank and the biceps is relatively loose flesh just like the bowels of an animal, and the high velocity and relativey low resistance at near muzzle probably reduced the chance of expansion thus making tearing of the loose flesh more likely. However, I could be wrong. It could have expanded in part or in whole. We'll never know because even if recovered, the impact with whatever ultimately stopped it, wall, tree etc, will have expanded it anyway.
I finally found some credible information that is making me back off on much of what I've said on this topic.
Bullets DO rotate end for end within a wound channel.
Military bullet wound patterns
kjg-munition.de
View attachment 108598
I found the diagram to be a compelling mirror of the Youtube video of a FMJ 55 grain through gel. On closer inspection-- the video when slowed down (play at 0.25x) even seems to show the bullet exiting the gel going backwards.
It DOES look to me that the rear end of that bullet is leading, and the tip is at the back.
View attachment 108602
The question then is whether this is "designed" or if it is simply a characteristic.
Military fmj in 5.56mm (M193) do not have any kind of gap or other components within the bullet. They are simply lead encased in the jacket.
View attachment 108604
I finally found some credible information that is making me back off on much of what I've said on this topic.
Bullets DO rotate end for end within a wound channel.
Military bullet wound patterns
kjg-munition.de
View attachment 108598
I found the diagram to be a compelling mirror of the Youtube video of a FMJ 55 grain through gel. On closer inspection-- the video when slowed down (play at 0.25x) even seems to show the bullet exiting the gel going backwards.
It DOES look to me that the rear end of that bullet is leading, and the tip is at the back.
View attachment 108602
The question then is whether this is "designed" or if it is simply a characteristic.
Military fmj in 5.56mm (M193) do not have any kind of gap or other components within the bullet. They are simply lead encased in the jacket.
View attachment 108604
They were FMJ. This was confirmed at trial.
You have mentioned that Rittenhouse most likely had hollow points a couple of times. @fenderman says they were not, as stated during the trial. I'm guessing your mistake on this point is due to the scarcity of guns in Europe, and relying on book knowledge.
While hollow points are more common for pistols, and hunting rifles, they are not common for 223/5.56. They are readily available, but very few people use them, especially if they target shoot at all, which is what most people who have an AR for self defense would do. Typically you will pay 50-100% more for HP vs FMJ. When you have a 30 round magazine and are shooting, it adds up quickly. Yes, I know there are plenty of folks with a variety of non-FMJ, green tips, polymer, and others, but by far, the largest percentage of shooters will have FMJ. Most folks who have polymer tips or HP most likely have them for varmints.
The fact that you have been shooting for over 40 years doesn't really surprise me. The main difference between the US and Europe in terms of gun ownership is that you have to ask the government's permission to do damned near anything with one. And you don't have self protection capability like we have. Period. I am well aware of the lack of freedoms in Europe relating to self defense. Just stand there and get beaten or stabbed, give away your possessions until you have none is basically it. FYI, the CIA does not, openly, do any investigations of US Citizens, it would be the FBI, ATF, and a bunch of other abbreviations.It may surprise you to know I have been shooting over 40 years despite living in Europe. The main difference between our jurisdiction and yours is the reasons we can own guns and what we can use them for. Any kind of self defence is a no no for reason of ownership and a no no for self defensive action except in the most extreme of circumstances. There is a long list of cases in the UK of people being sent to Jail for using guns in what were arguably self defence cirumstances. The only reasons for owning guns in the UK are sporting and target shooting (plus humane despatch mostly for vets) which has to be proven. Even then owners are subject to very severe background checks that typically involve MI5 (CIA) checks taking as long as 3 months and medical checks, plus there are restrictions on the type of guns that can be owned eg all AR type of weapons are banned.
Well, we are speaking about the US, not Europe. The "book knowledge" quote was aimed at three areas. Firearms experience, which you have, civilian AR15 experience, which you don't, and US customs related to AR15s, which you say you don't have any experience with. In general, AR15s are used for self defense, fun, and varmint shooting in the US. Varmints because generally, the 223 round is deemed not capable of taking larger game, although some would argue that point. If a gun is used for self defense, and you wish to remain proficient at it, and maintain "muscle memory", which is FAR more than being able to hit a target, you shoot at targets and work through different scenarios. And while you do fire enough rounds to ensure your weapons will handle your self defense ammunition, you generally want the cheapest stuff you can find to practice with. And since most folks who buy an AR15 for self defense, like most folks who buy security cameras from Nest, Ring or, everyone's favorite, ReoLink, they never think the process though. So they end up using the cheap ammo.It maybe there is a US / EU difference here. I can't comment on what US owners use but in the UK and most of the EU at least, fmj are almost unheard of because they're considered inhumane against live prey. A .223 round in the UK is likely to be almost always hollow point. In fact the only use for non hollow point over here is target shooting because in the UK at least, hollow points are illegal to use on target ranges. In every other circumstance involving live shooting, hollow points will be used.
fwiw - some European countries "silencers" are perfectly legal .. as are fully auto .. so there is some significant variations in laws ..
watched 5 hours, nothing happened![]()
"Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha"
I think this is fake news. First, the Marshals are not involved in securing the state court house or safeguarding the jurors. Second, the jury deliberates alone. Third, if a juror actually said this to any law enforcement official they would bring it to the judges attention asap, just like the joke that got the juror tossed."Irreeposnible on the part of the US Marshal to leak that - but I find it plausible.
Risk aversion gets good people killed. Two appeasers out of twelve. Close to 20%. Fits the remarkably wide fitting "80/20 rule.""
From another forum that I visit quite frequently.