Kenosha Shooter Kyle Rittenhouse; Criminal, Murderer or Citizen Defender.

[sdkid]

 

[CCTVCam]

It also could have been hydraulic shock. A high speed projectile, ~2500fps or higher, hitting a high water content area will cause a pretty significant shockwave. The bicep, even in Arnold when in his prime, isn't all that big. Think about what you see in ballistic gelatin, the white area just inside where the bullet impacts is that shockwave.

I think you mean hydrostatic shock. Hydrostatic shock is caused usually by expansion and that's what hollow points achieve. However, the close range makes me think it's unlikely it expanded, at least properly. There's a chance of limited expansion but I would imagine it more likely to be just shear energy and tearing forces. No doubt someone had the lovely job of sweeping up a bicep the following morning.

Exactly. An FMJ bullet hitting ballistics gel and roughly maintaining trajectory through it will generate a massive cavitation effect from that shock wave. The appearance of that cavitation is not proof that the bullet is "tumbling".

The amount of hydrostatic shock generated by an FMJ is a fraction of what a hollow point generates. Also don't assume because something is designated fmj it doesn't have a hollow point. There;s what are known as jacketed hollow points the point of which is the jacket controls the ecpansion so instead of achieving explosive fragmentation as you see with Varmint bullet designs, the head of the bullet expands controllably, typically to 1.5-2 times it's original size. A deer hunting bullet would be a typical example. A true FMJ would be a solid bullet with a copper wrap.

Anyone with experience of shooting will know when shooting animals, a true solid bullet will tend to drill a hole straight through and although it doesn't necessarily mean you won't kill, you could hit vital blood vessels or organs, the chance of killing is reduced. This is the reason hunters nearly always use hollow points. They're more humanedue to hydrostatic shock. For the same reason, civillian police and self defence rounds tend to be hollow points - maximum stopping power. The military can't use hollow points because they are banned under international treaty.

There are also two type of shock cavity temporary and permanent. Temporary represents the damage done to flesh by bursting some of the cells but sufficient survive to ensure the flesh itself stays relatively intact, just damaged. Permanent is the damage caused by the hydrostatic shock completely destroying the cells leaving a permanent cavity in the body where the flesh was either vaporised, had all the cell walls completely destroyed cuasing the cells to collapse, or blown out the back of the animal by the hydrostatic shockwave's force. Typically the latter is what happens to loose objetcs in the body such as bowels.

However, this is all moot.

Being a civilian, Rittenhouse was more than likley using civilllian ammunition which means holllow points. The question is whether or not the bullet caused the damage through expansion or shear tearing force. I'm inclined to think because of the close range shear force as it was near point blank and the biceps is relatively loose flesh just like the bowels of an animal, and the high velocity and relativey low resistance at near muzzle probably reduced the chance of expansion thus making tearing of the loose flesh more likely. However, I could be wrong. It could have expanded in part or in whole. We'll never know because even if recovered, the impact with whatever ultimately stopped it, wall, tree etc, will have expanded it anyway.

 

[CCTVCam]

View attachment 108561

How did subject 2 even get bail after shooting 4 people in what sounds like from the text to have been a pre-meditated attempted murder?

 

[bigredfish]

With the verdict just around the corner, and the distinct possibility of a replay of last years “mostly peaceful” riots, it’s a good idea to review the words of that deep thinking, mostly peaceful, former Delta Operator and philosopher Pat McNamara and his Sentinel series…

 

[fenderman]

Being a civilian, Rittenhouse was more than likley using civilllian ammunition which means holllow points. The question is whether or not the bullet caused the damage through expansion or shear tearing force. I'm inclined to think because of the close range shear force as it was near point blank and the biceps is relatively loose flesh just like the bowels of an animal, and the high velocity and relativey low resistance at near muzzle probably reduced the chance of expansion thus making tearing of the loose flesh more likely. However, I could be wrong. It could have expanded in part or in whole. We'll never know because even if recovered, the impact with whatever ultimately stopped it, wall, tree etc, will have expanded it anyway.

They were FMJ. This was confirmed at trial.

 

[TVille]

Being a civilian, Rittenhouse was more than likley using civilllian ammunition which means holllow points. The question is whether or not the bullet caused the damage through expansion or shear tearing force. I'm inclined to think because of the close range shear force as it was near point blank and the biceps is relatively loose flesh just like the bowels of an animal, and the high velocity and relativey low resistance at near muzzle probably reduced the chance of expansion thus making tearing of the loose flesh more likely. However, I could be wrong. It could have expanded in part or in whole. We'll never know because even if recovered, the impact with whatever ultimately stopped it, wall, tree etc, will have expanded it anyway.

You have mentioned that Rittenhouse most likely had hollow points a couple of times. @fenderman says they were not, as stated during the trial. I'm guessing your mistake on this point is due to the scarcity of guns in Europe, and relying on book knowledge.

While hollow points are more common for pistols, and hunting rifles, they are not common for 223/5.56. They are readily available, but very few people use them, especially if they target shoot at all, which is what most people who have an AR for self defense would do. Typically you will pay 50-100% more for HP vs FMJ. When you have a 30 round magazine and are shooting, it adds up quickly. Yes, I know there are plenty of folks with a variety of non-FMJ, green tips, polymer, and others, but by far, the largest percentage of shooters will have FMJ. Most folks who have polymer tips or HP most likely have them for varmints.

 

[sdkid]

The amount of hydrostatic shock generated by an FMJ is a fraction of what a hollow point generates. Also don't assume because something is designated fmj it doesn't have a hollow point. There;s what are known as jacketed hollow points the point of which is the jacket controls the ecpansion so instead of achieving explosive fragmentation as you see with Varmint bullet designs, the head of the bullet expands controllably, typically to 1.5-2 times it's original size. A deer hunting bullet would be a typical example. A true FMJ would be a solid bullet with a copper wrap.

Anyone with experience of shooting will know when shooting animals, a true solid bullet will tend to drill a hole straight through and although it doesn't necessarily mean you won't kill, you could hit vital blood vessels or organs, the chance of killing is reduced. This is the reason hunters nearly always use hollow points. They're more humanedue to hydrostatic shock. For the same reason, civillian police and self defence rounds tend to be hollow points - maximum stopping power. The military can't use hollow points because they are banned under international treaty.

There are also two type of shock cavity temporary and permanent. Temporary represents the damage done to flesh by bursting some of the cells but sufficient survive to ensure the flesh itself stays relatively intact, just damaged. Permanent is the damage caused by the hydrostatic shock completely destroying the cells leaving a permanent cavity in the body where the flesh was either vaporised, had all the cell walls completely destroyed cuasing the cells to collapse, or blown out the back of the animal by the hydrostatic shockwave's force. Typically the latter is what happens to loose objetcs in the body such as bowels.

However, this is all moot.

Being a civilian, Rittenhouse was more than likley using civilllian ammunition which means holllow points. The question is whether or not the bullet caused the damage through expansion or shear tearing force. I'm inclined to think because of the close range shear force as it was near point blank and the biceps is relatively loose flesh just like the bowels of an animal, and the high velocity and relativey low resistance at near muzzle probably reduced the chance of expansion thus making tearing of the loose flesh more likely. However, I could be wrong. It could have expanded in part or in whole. We'll never know because even if recovered, the impact with whatever ultimately stopped it, wall, tree etc, will have expanded it anyway.

I finally found some credible information that is making me back off on much of what I've said on this topic.

Bullets DO rotate end for end within a wound channel.

Military bullet wound patterns

kjg-munition.de

I found the diagram to be a compelling mirror of the Youtube video of a FMJ 55 grain through gel. On closer inspection-- the video when slowed down (play at 0.25x) even seems to show the bullet exiting the gel going backwards.
It DOES look to me that the rear end of that bullet is leading, and the tip is at the back.



The question then is whether this is "designed" or if it is simply a characteristic.
Military fmj in 5.56mm (M193) do not have any kind of gap or other components within the bullet. They are simply lead encased in the jacket.

 

[mat200]

I finally found some credible information that is making me back off on much of what I've said on this topic.

Bullets DO rotate end for end within a wound channel.

Military bullet wound patterns

kjg-munition.de

View attachment 108598

I found the diagram to be a compelling mirror of the Youtube video of a FMJ 55 grain through gel. On closer inspection-- the video when slowed down (play at 0.25x) even seems to show the bullet exiting the gel going backwards.
It DOES look to me that the rear end of that bullet is leading, and the tip is at the back.

View attachment 108602

The question then is whether this is "designed" or if it is simply a characteristic.
Military fmj in 5.56mm (M193) do not have any kind of gap or other components within the bullet. They are simply lead encased in the jacket.

View attachment 108604

Yes, often bullets - which are first designed to be ballistically stable midcourse / in-flight = often ( do rotate end to end ) means instable once it hits a denser object.
( the basic design is to get it able to hit the target first .. so not "designed to tumble on impact" .. that just happens by default )

Also, some 7.62mm NATO FMJ bullets will fragment in gel tests, while other 7.62 FMJ bullets with stronger jackets remain intact.

Some, like the 5.45x39mm was specifically designed with better terminal ballistics ( air space in the nose for that ).

Now with more body armour / armor there's a need to design for better penetration first ..

 

[bigredfish]

I finally found some credible information that is making me back off on much of what I've said on this topic.

Bullets DO rotate end for end within a wound channel.

Military bullet wound patterns

kjg-munition.de

View attachment 108598

I found the diagram to be a compelling mirror of the Youtube video of a FMJ 55 grain through gel. On closer inspection-- the video when slowed down (play at 0.25x) even seems to show the bullet exiting the gel going backwards.
It DOES look to me that the rear end of that bullet is leading, and the tip is at the back.

View attachment 108602

The question then is whether this is "designed" or if it is simply a characteristic.
Military fmj in 5.56mm (M193) do not have any kind of gap or other components within the bullet. They are simply lead encased in the jacket.

View attachment 108604

The answer is, it depends!

If you look at the 2 example cross section photos I posted of a 50 gr and a 77gr TMK you’ll see the standard 50-55 gr fmj will effectively explode into a bunch of tiny pieces at velocities north of 2500-2700 fps about 1-2 inches in. I believe this is what happened to lefty when Kyke shot him in the bicep

Whereas the polymer tipped 77gr has enough mass and due to the bullet construction also shatters but enough of the round remains intact and penetrates a ways further.

62-64 gr .223 gold dots on the other hand are made for penetration and will resemble a traditional handgun hollow point, opening up into a pretty flower and yet penetrating deeper essentially intact

So velocity, bullet construction, and what it hits all contribute to different paths and penetration

 

[CCTVCam]

They were FMJ. This was confirmed at trial.

Thanks Fenderman. I haven't been following the trial. This makes shear tearing force the likely culprit.

You have mentioned that Rittenhouse most likely had hollow points a couple of times. @fenderman says they were not, as stated during the trial. I'm guessing your mistake on this point is due to the scarcity of guns in Europe, and relying on book knowledge.

It may surprise you to know I have been shooting over 40 years despite living in Europe. The main difference between our jurisdiction and yours is the reasons we can own guns and what we can use them for. Any kind of self defence is a no no for reason of ownership and a no no for self defensive action except in the most extreme of circumstances. There is a long list of cases in the UK of people being sent to Jail for using guns in what were arguably self defence cirumstances. The only reasons for owning guns in the UK are sporting and target shooting (plus humane despatch mostly for vets) which has to be proven. Even then owners are subject to very severe background checks that typically involve MI5 (CIA) checks taking as long as 3 months and medical checks, plus there are restrictions on the type of guns that can be owned eg all AR type of weapons are banned.

While hollow points are more common for pistols, and hunting rifles, they are not common for 223/5.56. They are readily available, but very few people use them, especially if they target shoot at all, which is what most people who have an AR for self defense would do. Typically you will pay 50-100% more for HP vs FMJ. When you have a 30 round magazine and are shooting, it adds up quickly. Yes, I know there are plenty of folks with a variety of non-FMJ, green tips, polymer, and others, but by far, the largest percentage of shooters will have FMJ. Most folks who have polymer tips or HP most likely have them for varmints.

It maybe there is a US / EU difference here. I can't comment on what US owners use but in the UK and most of the EU at least, fmj are almost unheard of because they're considered inhumane against live prey. A .223 round in the UK is likely to be almost always hollow point. In fact the only use for non hollow point over here is target shooting because in the UK at least, hollow points are illegal to use on target ranges. In every other circumstance involving live shooting, hollow points will be used.

 

[eeeeesh]

I think people tend to overlook the fact that 5.56/2.23 was developed to be a military round and there is this thing called the 'Genova Convention' (although I believe the US Military never ratified that section)

"Mandated by the Geneva Convention of 1922, the purpose of enclosing bullets with full metal jackets was to reduce combat fatalities. The bullets were designed to pass through bodies and, if no major organs were struck, only to wound the victim. Before metal jackets, bullets often detoured inside the body"

Also, wounding a combatant is more humane, but it also ties up more personnel and resources. When shooting fully auto - you don't want to have to worry about a 'failure to feed' malfunction which can happen with hollow points and lastly, FMJ in this caliber is cheaper because of mass production

 

[TVille]

It may surprise you to know I have been shooting over 40 years despite living in Europe. The main difference between our jurisdiction and yours is the reasons we can own guns and what we can use them for. Any kind of self defence is a no no for reason of ownership and a no no for self defensive action except in the most extreme of circumstances. There is a long list of cases in the UK of people being sent to Jail for using guns in what were arguably self defence cirumstances. The only reasons for owning guns in the UK are sporting and target shooting (plus humane despatch mostly for vets) which has to be proven. Even then owners are subject to very severe background checks that typically involve MI5 (CIA) checks taking as long as 3 months and medical checks, plus there are restrictions on the type of guns that can be owned eg all AR type of weapons are banned.

The fact that you have been shooting for over 40 years doesn't really surprise me. The main difference between the US and Europe in terms of gun ownership is that you have to ask the government's permission to do damned near anything with one. And you don't have self protection capability like we have. Period. I am well aware of the lack of freedoms in Europe relating to self defense. Just stand there and get beaten or stabbed, give away your possessions until you have none is basically it. FYI, the CIA does not, openly, do any investigations of US Citizens, it would be the FBI, ATF, and a bunch of other abbreviations.

It maybe there is a US / EU difference here. I can't comment on what US owners use but in the UK and most of the EU at least, fmj are almost unheard of because they're considered inhumane against live prey. A .223 round in the UK is likely to be almost always hollow point. In fact the only use for non hollow point over here is target shooting because in the UK at least, hollow points are illegal to use on target ranges. In every other circumstance involving live shooting, hollow points will be used.

Well, we are speaking about the US, not Europe. The "book knowledge" quote was aimed at three areas. Firearms experience, which you have, civilian AR15 experience, which you don't, and US customs related to AR15s, which you say you don't have any experience with. In general, AR15s are used for self defense, fun, and varmint shooting in the US. Varmints because generally, the 223 round is deemed not capable of taking larger game, although some would argue that point. If a gun is used for self defense, and you wish to remain proficient at it, and maintain "muscle memory", which is FAR more than being able to hit a target, you shoot at targets and work through different scenarios. And while you do fire enough rounds to ensure your weapons will handle your self defense ammunition, you generally want the cheapest stuff you can find to practice with. And since most folks who buy an AR15 for self defense, like most folks who buy security cameras from Nest, Ring or, everyone's favorite, ReoLink, they never think the process though. So they end up using the cheap ammo.

 

[mat200]

fwiw - some European countries "silencers" are perfectly legal .. as are fully auto .. so there is some significant variations in laws ..







and it's clear some European countries have more freedom than others ...
( you can see various youtubers here in the following .. InRange, Bloke on the Range, Forgotten Weapons, ... )

 

[user8963]

watched 5 hours, nothing happened

 

[CCTVCam]

fwiw - some European countries "silencers" are perfectly legal .. as are fully auto .. so there is some significant variations in laws ..

They're pretty much compulsory in the UK. Over here they're referred to as moderators because they don't silence the gun but moderate the sound. Anyone who knows firearms will know about the quietest you can get is from .22rf subsonics which are rimfires, and all CF's still have significant report or supersonic crack even with a moderator. The difference is the moderator will take around 30db off the report helping to make it less obtrusive and in some cases ear safe. The latter was the major driving point for change in the UK. Maybe 10-15 years ago, just like the US, you'd have struggled to get a moderator approved (over here you need a variation just like the US). However, health and safety considerations along with reducing the noise complaints from neighbours factor, caused an about turn from the authorities, and now a moderator is granted pretty much without question. In fact, you'd struggle to find anyone over here shooting without one.

 

[Oceanslider]

watched 5 hours, nothing happened

Yup, no decisions today. Went home for the night.

 

[mat200]

Ben Shapiro commentary

 

[Parley]

"Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha"

"Irreeposnible on the part of the US Marshal to leak that - but I find it plausible.
Risk aversion gets good people killed. Two appeasers out of twelve. Close to 20%. Fits the remarkably wide fitting "80/20 rule.""

From another forum that I visit quite frequently.

 

[fenderman]

"Irreeposnible on the part of the US Marshal to leak that - but I find it plausible.
Risk aversion gets good people killed. Two appeasers out of twelve. Close to 20%. Fits the remarkably wide fitting "80/20 rule.""

From another forum that I visit quite frequently.

I think this is fake news. First, the Marshals are not involved in securing the state court house or safeguarding the jurors. Second, the jury deliberates alone. Third, if a juror actually said this to any law enforcement official they would bring it to the judges attention asap, just like the joke that got the juror tossed.

 

[bigredfish]

Kyle Rittenhouse Asked To Step Outside And Defend The Courthouse While Verdict Is Being Read

KENOSHA, WI—Moments before reading the verdict, the twelve jurors in the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse asked if the defendant would please step outside and defend the courthouse.

babylonbee.com