Looking for advice of Camera and Software

agarwaldvk

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You can always add CodeProject later if you like. Figure out the basics of BI with your camera first and then add later if you need.

OK here comes a long post LOL:

READING PLATES

You would have to set the camera up specifically to read plates. You need the proper camera with OPTICAL zoom for the distance you are covering and the angle to get plates.

Regarding plates, keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

1675078711764.png


See the LPR subforum for more details.


FACE DETECTION

Keep in mind that most of us have found that facial identification is more gimmicky and novelty than anything else. If you have to put in 5 or 10 or 15 or 35 pictures or more of yourself in the system for it to recognize it is you...then you shouldn't expect much.... My success rate was under 5% so I moved on to other things LOL. YMMV

It can work in certain situations like a business that requires everyone to stop in front of the camera and the camera is at head height. Outside of that, the percentage of being accurate is probably not going to be super high. You will get a lot of false "confirmations" doing a search.

Someone here posted once how horrible it was inside his house identifying his neighbors and others as him. Another guy his kids and wife were being tagged as him inside the house.

Unless you spend the big bucks that casinos and airports have LOL.

Heck even in ideal situations like a business with the camera at ideal height and optimal lighting it fails....




INITIAL SETUP OF CAMERA

For this camera you will need to use Internet Explorer - not Edge or Chrome with IE tab, but plain ole Explorer. If you use another browser some of the settings won't hold, like tracking time.

The default IP address of the camera is 192.168.1.108, which may or may not be the IP address range of your system.

Unhook a computer or laptop from the internet and go into ethernet settings and using the IPv4 settings manually change the IP address to 192.168.1.100

View attachment 171299

Then power up your camera and wait a few minutes.

Then go to INTERNET EXPLORER (needs to be Explorer and not Edge or Chrome with IE tab) and type in 192.168.1.108 (default IP address of Dahua cameras) and you will then access the camera.

Tell it your country and give it a user and password.

Then go to the camera Network settings and change the camera IP address to the range of your system and hit save.

You will then lose the camera connection.

Then reverse the process to put your computer back on your network IP address range.

Next open up INTERNET EXPLORER and type in the new IP address that you just gave the camera to access it.

OR use the IPconfig Tool, but most of us prefer the above as it is one less program needed and one less chance for the cameras to phone home or for something to get screwed up.




DIAL IN THE CAMERA TO YOUR FIELD OF VIEW

In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.

Start with:

H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.



GETTING CAMERA TRIGGERS INTO BI

Since you decided to go with the camera AI, then set up the IVS rules within the camera and let it do its thing!

Go into the camera and set up smart plan with IVS, then go to the IVS screen and draw IVS rules (tripwire or intrusion box) and then select the AI you want it to trigger on (human or vehicle).

Then in BI, there are a few places you need to set this up in BI (assuming you already set up the IVS rules in the camera GUI):

In Camera configure setting check the box "Get ONVIF triggers".

Hit Find/Inspect on the camera setting to pull the coding for the triggers.

Go into Motion Setting and select the "Cameras digital input" box.

On the Alerts tab uncheck the Motions Zones tab (those are alerting you to any BI motion in those areas in Zones A thru H)

On the alerts tab set up how to be notified.
Oh mate

Seriously, there is no way known I would be able to get all of that right!!!!!!!!!!! I struggle with the basic networking stuff.

I am not looking at reading the number of cars going past my house - just those that are driving in to my driveway or are parked just alongside my nature strip, that's it.

As for face recognition, all I was looking for was an image that will show the face of the person in the image.

Do I need all of that to get just this much off my security system?
 

fenderman

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Oh mate

Seriously, there is no way known I would be able to get all of that right!!!!!!!!!!! I struggle with the basic networking stuff.

I am not looking at reading the number of cars going past my house - just those that are driving in to my driveway or are parked just alongside my nature strip, that's it.

As for face recognition, all I was looking for was an image that will show the face of the person in the image.

Do I need all of that to get just this much off my security system?
You need ring, wyze etc....simple easy for someone like you.
 

wittaj

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Oh mate

Seriously, there is no way known I would be able to get all of that right!!!!!!!!!!! I struggle with the basic networking stuff.

I am not looking at reading the number of cars going past my house - just those that are driving in to my driveway or are parked just alongside my nature strip, that's it.

As for face recognition, all I was looking for was an image that will show the face of the person in the image.

Do I need all of that to get just this much off my security system?
In that case you should be fine. The CodeProject AI for plates and faces are to be able to have the computer read the plates and you to tag faces as to who they are.

If you just want to be able to go back later and pull up the video and read the plate (provided you have the camera focal length set appropriately) or to see who came by, yeah you are good to go.
 

Swampledge

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@agarwaldvk , a few words of “advice” from someone who was a camera/Blue Iris newbie 2 years ago:

IMO, you are on the right track with the equipment you have chosen and the great advice you have been given here. Now you need to view this as the beginning of a continuing journey towards the best system for your needs and budget. We all feel an urgency to get the “best” system up and running fast, but everyone has a different use case and environment. A great system is not “plug and play” like so many marketers would have you believe. Get your first camera working in Blue Iris, mess around with the camera AI and BI motion detection, camera settings, etc. Learn how to review clips and export video. You’ll be discouraged from time to time, but you’ll get what you want, and discover a world of capabilities. You will have security events that change your priorities for camera locations and capabilities, but that’s just reality unless you have an unlimited budget.
 

agarwaldvk

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Hi Everyone


Sorry for the long absence but have been trying to finalize the cameras for the system, organizing someone to have the cameras installed (I can't do that myself) and getting someone to do the set networking side setup (he should be here in the next couple of weeks - to set up the vlan's with dedicated vlan or a separate for the security system (as he cursorily mentioned)).

Looking at the following :-
1 off 4 MP (1/1.8" sensor) bullet camera (front of the house under the balcony ceiling) - 2.8 to 12 motorized vari-focal
4 off 4 MP (1/1.8" sensor) turret camera (1 at the front of garage, 1 each at the 2 sides and the back of the house) - 2.8 fixed lens
3 off 2 MP (1/2.8" sensor - relatively cheaper compared to the other 2 above) dome camera (1 at the front door ( in the porch) and 1 each at the 2 sides in the pergola (verandah) - 2.8 fixed lens

All cameras have IR (almost 0 lux IR - I know I am led to believe that doesn't really mean much but just mentioning it for information)

Total cost (approx. as haven't the final pricing yet from the supplier) - AUD2000 (including outdoor mounts) - possibly slightly less after discount

Does the pricing look over the top?

Hopefully it might all get setup in a month or so. Looking forward to it.


Best regards


Deepak
 

agarwaldvk

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Hi Guys


Just bought the 6 TB WD Purple HDD and am trying to install it.

The holes in the drive don't align with any holes in the holding bracket. How do we ensure that the HDD is affixed to the HDD cage.

Some of the videos online show use of Torx screws, is that what is required to fix it to the bracket?

Is there a link that anyone can point me to to see how to fix it to the HP Elite Desk computer that I intend to use as a NVR for the system?


Best regards


Deepak20231008_131916.jpg
 

wittaj

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Worse case is duct tape or velcro it - it isn't like you are carrying the computer around so it doesn't need to be rock solid.

Many of us have used duct tape or velcro when we added another drive that didn't have a cage for it.
 

agarwaldvk

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Really, there is no better way. HP designed the system with no facility to install a HDD with proper fixings. Leave a hell of a lot to be desired if that's how they build their systems but nonetheless.


Deepak
 

wittaj

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Now I see the picture - looks like you are probably missing a part, but regardless a screw and a washer will hold it in place.
 

Flintstone61

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Flintstone61

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Really, there is no better way. HP designed the system with no facility to install a HDD with proper fixings. Leave a hell of a lot to be desired if that's how they build their systems but nonetheless.


Deepak
So quick to disparage the PC builder as incompetent, it could be the end users....
 

looktall

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HP generally uses a mounting system that requires the drive to have screws installed into the drive. .the drive then slides into the mounting bracket and locks in place.
There are usually spare screws screwed into the chassis near the front bezel of the computer.
 

agarwaldvk

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Hi Everyone


Back again for a couple of questions, one regarding the locations of the various folders for the Blue Iris software and the other about changing the image resolution of the camera as I couldn't get some of the cameras that I was looking for.

Question 1
My HP Elite Desktop now has 2 HDD's viz a 512 GB NVMe SSD and the other is a 6 TB WD Purple HDD.

When I installed the software (there was only the SSD available at the time) and all the 4 folders (Alerts, db, New and Stored) were on that drive.

It was always intended to only have the Windows OS and the Blue Iris software installed on the SSD and the camera footage on the HDD.

Now that I have this new 6 TB HDD locally connected, do I need to keep the 'db' and the 'Alerts' folders on the SSD and move/copy only the 'New' and the 'Stored' folders on the HDD or move all the 4 folders to the HDD. I read it somewhere online that it is not a good idea to have the 'New' and the 'Stored' on the SSD to avoid 'thrashing' and whatever else to avoid damage to the SSD by writing and re-writing on it

Please advise.

Question 2
I was intending to include a few 2 MP cameras on the 1/2.7" sensor for the backyard and the sides of the house instead of the 4 MP cameras on 1/1.8" sensor to get a slightly better quality low light image. Apparently these days, most suppliers are moving towards higher resolution cameras with a minimum of 4 / 6 MP cameras and going up to 8 MP and beyond. Some of the suppliers recommended me to go for 4 MP camera on a 1/2.7" sensor and then tone down the image resolution to 2 MP - to realize a similar quality low light image as you would on a 2 MP cameras with a 1/2.7" sensor. Physics tells me that it would work but I haven't tried that. Can someone please advise if this is an option that can be considered - the reason I ask this question is that apparently these 4 and 6 MP cameras these days are the default and are bulk manufactured and can be bought relatively cheaply compared to 2 MP cameras (which are now limited to PTZ cameras and other high end ones - so I have seen online)

One of the ones that was recommended was this one :-

Dahua 6 MP fixed camera


Looking for some recommendations here.


Best regards


Deepak
 

wittaj

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Hi Everyone


Back again for a couple of questions, one regarding the locations of the various folders for the Blue Iris software and the other about changing the image resolution of the camera as I couldn't get some of the cameras that I was looking for.

Question 1
My HP Elite Desktop now has 2 HDD's viz a 512 GB NVMe SSD and the other is a 6 TB WD Purple HDD.

When I installed the software (there was only the SSD available at the time) and all the 4 folders (Alerts, db, New and Stored) were on that drive.

It was always intended to only have the Windows OS and the Blue Iris software installed on the SSD and the camera footage on the HDD.

Now that I have this new 6 TB HDD locally connected, do I need to keep the 'db' and the 'Alerts' folders on the SSD and move/copy only the 'New' and the 'Stored' folders on the HDD or move all the 4 folders to the HDD. I read it somewhere online that it is not a good idea to have the 'New' and the 'Stored' on the SSD to avoid 'thrashing' and whatever else to avoid damage to the SSD by writing and re-writing on it

Please advise.

Question 2
I was intending to include a few 2 MP cameras on the 1/2.7" sensor for the backyard and the sides of the house instead of the 4 MP cameras on 1/1.8" sensor to get a slightly better quality low light image. Apparently these days, most suppliers are moving towards higher resolution cameras with a minimum of 4 / 6 MP cameras and going up to 8 MP and beyond. Some of the suppliers recommended me to go for 4 MP camera on a 1/2.7" sensor and then tone down the image resolution to 2 MP - to realize a similar quality low light image as you would on a 2 MP cameras with a 1/2.7" sensor. Physics tells me that it would work but I haven't tried that. Can someone please advise if this is an option that can be considered - the reason I ask this question is that apparently these 4 and 6 MP cameras these days are the default and are bulk manufactured and can be bought relatively cheaply compared to 2 MP cameras (which are now limited to PTZ cameras and other high end ones - so I have seen online)

One of the ones that was recommended was this one :-

Dahua 6 MP fixed camera


Looking for some recommendations here.


Best regards


Deepak
Question 1 :

Keep DB on the C drive. Put alerts, New, and Stored on the 6TB HDD

Do not use STORED - it makes zero sense to move files around on the same drive. Just keep all the video in NEW and delete when the drive gets full (do not allocate the full drive and save like 10% to allow windows to do its thing).


Question 2:

A 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor will beat the 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor at low light. The only exception is if you need optical zoom and you need a high enough optical zoom that the 4MP is not offered in that focal length.

You got some suppliers trying to offload bad inventory. You need to get cameras on the ideal MP/sensor ratio. A higher MP on a sensor rated for a lower MP will result in poor night performance.

1697194316255.png

The supplier recommending you simply downrez a camera shouldn't be selling cameras. They are trying to get rid of unsold stock.

Downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 4 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 4MP to 2MP. The sensor still needs 2 times the light going from 4MP to 2MP, so the native 2MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 4MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 2MP.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from Andy based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.


Here is a real world example from a 2MP and 4MP model camera on the same size sensor.

Here is the 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:


2MP.jpg




Here is the same camera model except it is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 2MP above.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:




4MP.jpg





So one thinks, "hey why don't I just make the 4MP camera a 2MP resolution and it will perform like a 2MP resolution camera" The first thing you notice is that downrezing the 4MP down to a 2MP doesn't result in the camera being able to run color like the native 2MP as the sensor still doesn't see enough light to run in color because the 4MP "pixel screen" simply isn't letting enough light get into the optics of the sensor.

That is a big deal with low light conditions and why you want to go with a native resolution and preferably a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio that is talked about here often. The native resolution may be able to be in color, but the higher resolution on the same size sensor probably won't with low light conditions.

Then in this case, you can see that the 4MP was struggling to even give definition compared to the 2MP. It is wet out so the rain reflections is wreaking havoc with the infrared and focus.

So when I downrezed but kept the bitrate the same, it still looks like a soft mess. Even if there is less noise in this instance, it still doesn't look as good as the native.




4MP downrez 2MP.jpg





And the less light that is available, the bigger the difference one will see. Personally, for me the difference between being able to run it in color versus B/W is enough of a reason to go with the camera that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio talked about here so much.

As always YMMV. But I think it is safe to say your supplier is trying to offload some non-selling cameras!
 

agarwaldvk

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Hey Wittaj


Thanks for your invaluable advice on both counts.

Further clarificarifications :-

Question 1
Do I delete the other folders except for the 'db' folder on the SSD (C:\ drive) or just make its capacity zero (0) and then create new folders on the HDD?


Question 2
Point taken absolutely. I am sure he must be trying to get rid of some bad inventory at my cost.

I am hence considering the Dahua camera now (given it is preferred by people on this forum and for good reason).

Can't afford the 5442 series - expensive (4 MP on 1/1.8" sensor)

Was looking at the 3466 series - Dahua 4 MP fixed camera (1/2.8" sensor)

or Samsung/Hanwha - Samsung 4 MP Fixed Camera (1/2.8" sensor)

Both are pretty much similarly priced at around $300 with Samsung slightly more expensive than Dahua.- both fail to meet the minimum resolution to sensor size ration requirements for good quality low light image.

What I am wondering is why would people be spending that sort of money to buy something like the above Samsung camera when we all know that its no lgood for good quality low light camera - or am I missing something in my understanding?

I will obviously have to continue to search for Dahua/Uniview 2 MP camera on a 1/2.8" sensor.

Best regards


Deepak
 

mat200

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Hi Everyone


Back again for a couple of questions, one regarding the locations of the various folders for the Blue Iris software and the other about changing the image resolution of the camera as I couldn't get some of the cameras that I was looking for.

Question 1
My HP Elite Desktop now has 2 HDD's viz a 512 GB NVMe SSD and the other is a 6 TB WD Purple HDD.

When I installed the software (there was only the SSD available at the time) and all the 4 folders (Alerts, db, New and Stored) were on that drive.

It was always intended to only have the Windows OS and the Blue Iris software installed on the SSD and the camera footage on the HDD.

Now that I have this new 6 TB HDD locally connected, do I need to keep the 'db' and the 'Alerts' folders on the SSD and move/copy only the 'New' and the 'Stored' folders on the HDD or move all the 4 folders to the HDD. I read it somewhere online that it is not a good idea to have the 'New' and the 'Stored' on the SSD to avoid 'thrashing' and whatever else to avoid damage to the SSD by writing and re-writing on it

Please advise.

Question 2
I was intending to include a few 2 MP cameras on the 1/2.7" sensor for the backyard and the sides of the house instead of the 4 MP cameras on 1/1.8" sensor to get a slightly better quality low light image. Apparently these days, most suppliers are moving towards higher resolution cameras with a minimum of 4 / 6 MP cameras and going up to 8 MP and beyond. Some of the suppliers recommended me to go for 4 MP camera on a 1/2.7" sensor and then tone down the image resolution to 2 MP - to realize a similar quality low light image as you would on a 2 MP cameras with a 1/2.7" sensor. Physics tells me that it would work but I haven't tried that. Can someone please advise if this is an option that can be considered - the reason I ask this question is that apparently these 4 and 6 MP cameras these days are the default and are bulk manufactured and can be bought relatively cheaply compared to 2 MP cameras (which are now limited to PTZ cameras and other high end ones - so I have seen online)

One of the ones that was recommended was this one :-

Dahua 6 MP fixed camera


Looking for some recommendations here.


Best regards


Deepak
"Some of the suppliers recommended me to go for 4 MP camera on a 1/2.7" sensor and then tone down the image resolution to 2 MP - to realize a similar quality low light image as you would on a 2 MP cameras with a 1/2.7" sensor. Physics tells me that it would work but I haven't tried that. Can someone please advise if this is an option that can be considered "


Sort of along the lines of you wanting a 4 cylinder 1.8L petro engine car .. and the car seller telling you that their 8 cylinder 1.8L engine would work well if you just pull the spark plugs from 4 of the 8 cylinders .

As others noted, those suppliers are NOT to be trusted.
 

looney2ns

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Hey Wittaj


Thanks for your invaluable advice on both counts.

Further clarificarifications :-

Question 1
Do I delete the other folders except for the 'db' folder on the SSD (C:\ drive) or just make its capacity zero (0) and then create new folders on the HDD?


Question 2
Point taken absolutely. I am sure he must be trying to get rid of some bad inventory at my cost.

I am hence considering the Dahua camera now (given it is preferred by people on this forum and for good reason).

Can't afford the 5442 series - expensive (4 MP on 1/1.8" sensor)

Was looking at the 3466 series - Dahua 4 MP fixed camera (1/2.8" sensor)

or Samsung/Hanwha - Samsung 4 MP Fixed Camera (1/2.8" sensor)

Both are pretty much similarly priced at around $300 with Samsung slightly more expensive than Dahua.- both fail to meet the minimum resolution to sensor size ration requirements for good quality low light image.

What I am wondering is why would people be spending that sort of money to buy something like the above Samsung camera when we all know that its no lgood for good quality low light camera - or am I missing something in my understanding?

I will obviously have to continue to search for Dahua/Uniview 2 MP camera on a 1/2.8" sensor.

Best regards


Deepak
Look at the Dahua International site, they offer several 2mp cams on the correct sensor size.
If you haven't, reach out to @EMPIRETECANDY and ask about shipping to your location, he does it all the time, and might be able to offer better pricing than what you are seeing locally.
 
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