Fastb
Known around here
@JFire,
I'm getting increasingly disappointed with simple MD.
Granted, the cam is mounted outside, facing my driveway. A tough application.
Problems:
- False alarms. When nothing there.
- Car comes/goes. 50% alarm trip rate.
- I walk through the area I configured (activated the blocks). And no alarm.
- ie: false alarms, inconsistently triggers on car, and doesn't trigger on people.
I haven't found a combo of settings that will work dependably.
- The sunlight through the trees changes the shadows as the wind blows. False alarms.
- The transition from night to day, and D to N. False alarms.
- blowing leaves, rain, bugs. False alarms
Q: Do I have the sensitivity or threshold set too hi/low?
A: No, because it doesn't trip when I walk up the driveway. Yet trips for non-events.
Simple MD may only be useable indoors. However, inside there are other challenges:
- Turning on a light at night changes the image, and triggers an alarm.
- So inside cameras can't be aimed at areas affected as lights are normally turned on/off. (eg: going to bed)
- For my application (job site security), I might be able to cope. (no lights on/off at night). However, when the thief shows up on the job site, if I set off strobes and floodlights, I could create false MD events.
Conclusion:
The "Tripwire" and "Intrusion Zone" feature of IVS may help greatly. We'll see.
For job site security, if the system sends a text about an intrusion, I need
- Minimal "false positives"
- Absolutely no "false negatives"
That's the challenge!
Great conversation! Thanks for the comments and input!
I'm getting increasingly disappointed with simple MD.
Granted, the cam is mounted outside, facing my driveway. A tough application.
Problems:
- False alarms. When nothing there.
- Car comes/goes. 50% alarm trip rate.
- I walk through the area I configured (activated the blocks). And no alarm.
- ie: false alarms, inconsistently triggers on car, and doesn't trigger on people.
I haven't found a combo of settings that will work dependably.
- The sunlight through the trees changes the shadows as the wind blows. False alarms.
- The transition from night to day, and D to N. False alarms.
- blowing leaves, rain, bugs. False alarms
Q: Do I have the sensitivity or threshold set too hi/low?
A: No, because it doesn't trip when I walk up the driveway. Yet trips for non-events.
Simple MD may only be useable indoors. However, inside there are other challenges:
- Turning on a light at night changes the image, and triggers an alarm.
- So inside cameras can't be aimed at areas affected as lights are normally turned on/off. (eg: going to bed)
- For my application (job site security), I might be able to cope. (no lights on/off at night). However, when the thief shows up on the job site, if I set off strobes and floodlights, I could create false MD events.
Conclusion:
The "Tripwire" and "Intrusion Zone" feature of IVS may help greatly. We'll see.
For job site security, if the system sends a text about an intrusion, I need
- Minimal "false positives"
- Absolutely no "false negatives"
That's the challenge!
Great conversation! Thanks for the comments and input!
Last edited by a moderator:
JFire
Getting the hang of it
nayr
IPCT Contributor
MD outdoors sucks ass, i just record 24/7 and have MD flag when there is actually something moving outside.. the only thing I let MD do action wise is turn on outside lights late at night.. and I have them tuned pretty aggressively for a very specific area.
Alerts/Alarms off MD is basically worthless..
You can get around some of the problems by wiring an alarm output from alarm system into the NVR, so it knows when the system is armed and only notifies when that alarm is enabled.
I use real sensors to tell my cameras to do stuff and alert me of activity.. they are much less prone to false alarms.. and false alarms just leads to ignored real alarms.
Line cross will be my first attempt to MD outdoors in a good while, to capture cars going by.. I dont have high hopes for it just because how crappy MD is, would be nice if it works well tho.
basic MD algorithms are just an attempt to save a bit of storage space when nothing is going on, it should not be used for notifications...
Alerts/Alarms off MD is basically worthless..
You can get around some of the problems by wiring an alarm output from alarm system into the NVR, so it knows when the system is armed and only notifies when that alarm is enabled.
I use real sensors to tell my cameras to do stuff and alert me of activity.. they are much less prone to false alarms.. and false alarms just leads to ignored real alarms.
Line cross will be my first attempt to MD outdoors in a good while, to capture cars going by.. I dont have high hopes for it just because how crappy MD is, would be nice if it works well tho.
basic MD algorithms are just an attempt to save a bit of storage space when nothing is going on, it should not be used for notifications...
Fastb
Known around here
@JFire,
Excellent suggestion!
Right now, my outdoor WiFi cam doesn't have IVS. So the car/people/false alarm situation is what it is.
Yes, when I roll out my final job site security system, I could use an outdoor cam w/ IVS.
Meanwhile, I'm gonna use my single IVS cam to play around with MD in combination with "Smart Detect" (including facial).
We'll see how much a combo is.
Also, I notice in RECORD, that I can enable MD, Alarm, or MD+Alarm.
Before I just upgraded the NVR to be IVS capable, if I checked the box for MD+Alarm, the boxes for MD and Alarm were automatically unchecked.
I didn't have external Alarms. So MD+Alarm wasn't enabled.
More experiments ahead. For Job Site Security, I'm testing a laser tripwire. Which will generate a hardware alarm input to the NVR. Then the MD+Alarm might give me the dependability I lust for.
Another thought:
For job site security, which is critical at night, I'm not sure facial recog is my IVS silver bullet. The outdoor cameras will likely be mounted high, the face will be small, and based on viewing angle, possibly obscured by a hoodie. For indoors, FD may complement tripwire and intrusion zone.
FD right now is pretty responsive, even on partial face. Cool tech..
More fun ahead!
Excellent suggestion!
Right now, my outdoor WiFi cam doesn't have IVS. So the car/people/false alarm situation is what it is.
Yes, when I roll out my final job site security system, I could use an outdoor cam w/ IVS.
Meanwhile, I'm gonna use my single IVS cam to play around with MD in combination with "Smart Detect" (including facial).
We'll see how much a combo is.
Also, I notice in RECORD, that I can enable MD, Alarm, or MD+Alarm.
Before I just upgraded the NVR to be IVS capable, if I checked the box for MD+Alarm, the boxes for MD and Alarm were automatically unchecked.
I didn't have external Alarms. So MD+Alarm wasn't enabled.
More experiments ahead. For Job Site Security, I'm testing a laser tripwire. Which will generate a hardware alarm input to the NVR. Then the MD+Alarm might give me the dependability I lust for.
Another thought:
For job site security, which is critical at night, I'm not sure facial recog is my IVS silver bullet. The outdoor cameras will likely be mounted high, the face will be small, and based on viewing angle, possibly obscured by a hoodie. For indoors, FD may complement tripwire and intrusion zone.
FD right now is pretty responsive, even on partial face. Cool tech..
More fun ahead!
Last edited by a moderator:
JFire
Getting the hang of it
Fastb
Known around here
@JFire,
I've been unable to enable FD with (tripwire OR intrusion).
I could try, but they wouldn't stay enabled. No error message. I'd go back in, and the checked box was cleared.
After NVR f/w upgrade, the NVR recorded the FD, tripwire & intrusion markers. In playback, I'd see all three.
FD would follow the person. tripwire line would flash red when crossed. Intrusion box would flash red when violated. All while the FD box followed the person. pics below
So I thought the NVR f/w upgrade solved the problem.
After your email ( "you can't run face detection with tripwire" ), I went back in. You're right. If FD enabled, you can't use tripwire or intrusion zone.. Or vice versa.
Even though FD is working, as evidenced by the FD box following heads around. For the events in the pics, I received texts w/ snaps for tripwire and intrusion events. Alarm output turned on my strobe light. For FD, no texts or alarms.
So it's curious. The camera is doing the image processing for all 3 types, which is cpu intensive. But it's not passing the alarm message to the NVR, which can't be that cpu intensive.
@nayr,
Thanks for putting it so succinctly! MD outdoors does suck ass!
False alarms when there's nothing there. But it sometimes misses vehicles, and always misses people.
And thanks for your thought, ie: "wiring an alarm output from alarm system into the NVR, so it knows when the system is armed and only notifies when that alarm is enabled."
I'm heading in that direction too. It won't be a professionally monitored alarm. But an alarm system to provide:
- multiple sensors for events
- a touch-key panel to arm/disarm the system by the GC.
--- Added benefit is an alarm delay, so the GC violates the site (eg: FD or tripwire), but the alarm system's delay allows the disarm code to be entered.
- essentially expands the input capacity. My NVR4216 only has four inputs. I see your NVR4216-4K has 8 (nice!)
I've been unable to enable FD with (tripwire OR intrusion).
I could try, but they wouldn't stay enabled. No error message. I'd go back in, and the checked box was cleared.
After NVR f/w upgrade, the NVR recorded the FD, tripwire & intrusion markers. In playback, I'd see all three.
FD would follow the person. tripwire line would flash red when crossed. Intrusion box would flash red when violated. All while the FD box followed the person. pics below
So I thought the NVR f/w upgrade solved the problem.
After your email ( "you can't run face detection with tripwire" ), I went back in. You're right. If FD enabled, you can't use tripwire or intrusion zone.. Or vice versa.
Even though FD is working, as evidenced by the FD box following heads around. For the events in the pics, I received texts w/ snaps for tripwire and intrusion events. Alarm output turned on my strobe light. For FD, no texts or alarms.
So it's curious. The camera is doing the image processing for all 3 types, which is cpu intensive. But it's not passing the alarm message to the NVR, which can't be that cpu intensive.
@nayr,
Thanks for putting it so succinctly! MD outdoors does suck ass!
False alarms when there's nothing there. But it sometimes misses vehicles, and always misses people.
And thanks for your thought, ie: "wiring an alarm output from alarm system into the NVR, so it knows when the system is armed and only notifies when that alarm is enabled."
I'm heading in that direction too. It won't be a professionally monitored alarm. But an alarm system to provide:
- multiple sensors for events
- a touch-key panel to arm/disarm the system by the GC.
--- Added benefit is an alarm delay, so the GC violates the site (eg: FD or tripwire), but the alarm system's delay allows the disarm code to be entered.
- essentially expands the input capacity. My NVR4216 only has four inputs. I see your NVR4216-4K has 8 (nice!)
Last edited by a moderator:
nayr
IPCT Contributor
the green box is object tracking thats enabled with IVS, I confirmed today that line cross detection works with my 4216-4k to trigger stuff.. using it to tell my PTZ's to look for someone leaving the area right now, will see how well it works before wiring up a strobe light.
unfortunately smartPSS on mac does not support IVS right now, so when searching recordings anything IVS flagged disappears.. suck.. they appear on the NVR tho.. this version is a few behind the windows client so I hope they release an update for OSX smartPSS soon.
also the mac plugin does not support drawing IVS settings through safari, going to try a windows VM but it does work directly through the native display.
so I'll be able to record cars driving by using line cross detection, testing it with my side cam right now and it tracks cars without a problem.. facial detection im still working on, think i need a windows browser to set it up, but line cross seems good enough.. might scare some cats and rabbits, shrug.
unfortunately smartPSS on mac does not support IVS right now, so when searching recordings anything IVS flagged disappears.. suck.. they appear on the NVR tho.. this version is a few behind the windows client so I hope they release an update for OSX smartPSS soon.
also the mac plugin does not support drawing IVS settings through safari, going to try a windows VM but it does work directly through the native display.
so I'll be able to record cars driving by using line cross detection, testing it with my side cam right now and it tracks cars without a problem.. facial detection im still working on, think i need a windows browser to set it up, but line cross seems good enough.. might scare some cats and rabbits, shrug.
Fastb
Known around here
@nayr,
~ Congrats on progress. Sympathy for mac incompatibilities, and lagging feature implementation.... And your input on green bax tracking that may be more related to IVS (line cross, intrusion zone) than Face Detect. Your comments make sense, I'll check my conlcusions. More below.....
nayr & @JFire,
~ An update one my progress with Face Detect (FD):
I had received a face detect email w/ snap, while dome cam was in my shop/lab. Moved the dome outside, and ran into problems (like IRC filter not retracting)
I moved the dome back outside, and now I can't get FD to work. WTF? I can't get a live view with green box tracking my head (which it did w/ IVS). FD is different, maybe the FD Live View differs from IVS Live View? Dunno right now....
I had FD events emails. No longer. A puzzle.
My outdoor Dome has issues (sticky IRC filter). Maybe other issues? It will likely go back (for the IRC problem)
Nayr, in your IT world, you probabaly support Android. Screw Windows shortcomings. Can't you surf to the cam w/ Android and config line and/or FD?
Good luck guys! I'll share findings when I find 'em!
~ Congrats on progress. Sympathy for mac incompatibilities, and lagging feature implementation.... And your input on green bax tracking that may be more related to IVS (line cross, intrusion zone) than Face Detect. Your comments make sense, I'll check my conlcusions. More below.....
nayr & @JFire,
~ An update one my progress with Face Detect (FD):
I had received a face detect email w/ snap, while dome cam was in my shop/lab. Moved the dome outside, and ran into problems (like IRC filter not retracting)
I moved the dome back outside, and now I can't get FD to work. WTF? I can't get a live view with green box tracking my head (which it did w/ IVS). FD is different, maybe the FD Live View differs from IVS Live View? Dunno right now....
I had FD events emails. No longer. A puzzle.
My outdoor Dome has issues (sticky IRC filter). Maybe other issues? It will likely go back (for the IRC problem)
Nayr, in your IT world, you probabaly support Android. Screw Windows shortcomings. Can't you surf to the cam w/ Android and config line and/or FD?
Good luck guys! I'll share findings when I find 'em!
Last edited by a moderator:
nayr
IPCT Contributor
gdmss on the droid does not have anything for IVS other than the push notifications, and Ive not played enough with that yet.
JFire
Getting the hang of it
Fastb
Known around here
@JFire,
I tried different size rectangles. I tried using the "Target Filter Min" and "Target Filter max"
I power cycled the camera
I stood on the walkway (see pic below) w/ my laptop while manipulating the rectangles.
I never saw FD activated, even when my face was within the small box.
I was expecting behavior similar to IVS (tripwire, intrusion). Specifically, the box changing color when activated (flashing green to red).
I never saw the rectangles in Preview (Live view), either with surfing to 1) the camera, or 2) through the NVR.
Playback doesn't show the boxes.
Playing with it today, noticed some odd behavior.
I configure the boxes, click "Save". I get the "save successful" message.
If I leave the FD tab, and then return, I see my configured boxes for 1 second. Then they disappear. And no boxes are then visible.
If I click on "Draw Target", the default boxes appear.
It's like the FD box was never configured! All the checkbox settings are retained, however.
I will check the 48V POE at the camera, in case this is a voltage drop problem due to the 75' Cat6 cable, as @nayr suggested.
I will do a hardware reset of the camera (pushbutton inside the dome).
After that, I'm running out of ideas.....
I tried different size rectangles. I tried using the "Target Filter Min" and "Target Filter max"
I power cycled the camera
I stood on the walkway (see pic below) w/ my laptop while manipulating the rectangles.
I never saw FD activated, even when my face was within the small box.
I was expecting behavior similar to IVS (tripwire, intrusion). Specifically, the box changing color when activated (flashing green to red).
I never saw the rectangles in Preview (Live view), either with surfing to 1) the camera, or 2) through the NVR.
Playback doesn't show the boxes.
Playing with it today, noticed some odd behavior.
I configure the boxes, click "Save". I get the "save successful" message.
If I leave the FD tab, and then return, I see my configured boxes for 1 second. Then they disappear. And no boxes are then visible.
If I click on "Draw Target", the default boxes appear.
It's like the FD box was never configured! All the checkbox settings are retained, however.
I will check the 48V POE at the camera, in case this is a voltage drop problem due to the 75' Cat6 cable, as @nayr suggested.
I will do a hardware reset of the camera (pushbutton inside the dome).
After that, I'm running out of ideas.....
Last edited by a moderator:
marid2apterbilt
Young grasshopper
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2015
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 7
finally got around to putting up 2 ivs capable cams "4431c" and playing with linc crossing on cam ui. But its not showing on my 4416-4k nvr.
What firm ware is runnig on yur NVR's. Mne seems to be a build from 1-2015. 3.210.0001.0
What firm ware is runnig on yur NVR's. Mne seems to be a build from 1-2015. 3.210.0001.0
nayr
IPCT Contributor
Ive got 3.210.0002.0, Build Date: 09-28-2015
You wont find anything on the WebUI, youll only find the IVS support with a monitor plugged in through the direct UI.
You wont find anything on the WebUI, youll only find the IVS support with a monitor plugged in through the direct UI.
Fastb
Known around here
I saw IVS capability when I browsed in to the camera itself.
But I didn't see IVS when using the native UI on the NVR, or browsing in to the NVR, or using Smart PSS.
Then I updated the NVR firmware to General_NVR4xxx_Eng_PN_V3.201.0000.0.R.20151120.bin
Then I could see IVS features. Here's a screen shot from my browser connected to the NVR;
But I didn't see IVS when using the native UI on the NVR, or browsing in to the NVR, or using Smart PSS.
Then I updated the NVR firmware to General_NVR4xxx_Eng_PN_V3.201.0000.0.R.20151120.bin
Then I could see IVS features. Here's a screen shot from my browser connected to the NVR;
JFire
Getting the hang of it
The ivs option on the nvr is only visible in the setup phase. If you restart the nvr and go through setup at the bottom of the screen will be a check box for ivs. I believe it's the 1st screen where you set date and time. Check it and you'll have ivs functions under camera and events.
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
marid2apterbilt
Young grasshopper
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2015
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 7
I reenabled the startup wizard and looked all over for a IVS check box but found nothing. I emailed my US supplier but no reply yet, gonna email them again with more detailed Info and request updated firmware. been a busy week for me. Hopefully I can resolve this easily
Fastb
Known around here
All,
I looked all over for ivs. I checked the suppplier, they said I needed the 4k model of nvr.
On this forum, I learned 1) that's not true, and 2) Nthe f/w version I needed. I presented info to my supplier, and viola! They provied a link for f/w upgrade!
Once I updated f/w, ivs was visible. Rebooting or powering up again didn't have me go back to a pre-ivs stage. Maybe I used setup wizrd for first-time ivs use. Can't remember.
After the f/w update (NVR and a camera), life was simple and stable. Over many power cycles & reboots.
YMMV
Face Detection now works, I get snapshots to cell phone. And "F" appears in the single-camera playback screen (along with "A" for Alarm, and "R" for the hourly Reset)
ivs: (FD is lame however)(line cross is strongest feature of ivs, IMHO)
fastb
I looked all over for ivs. I checked the suppplier, they said I needed the 4k model of nvr.
On this forum, I learned 1) that's not true, and 2) Nthe f/w version I needed. I presented info to my supplier, and viola! They provied a link for f/w upgrade!
Once I updated f/w, ivs was visible. Rebooting or powering up again didn't have me go back to a pre-ivs stage. Maybe I used setup wizrd for first-time ivs use. Can't remember.
After the f/w update (NVR and a camera), life was simple and stable. Over many power cycles & reboots.
YMMV
Face Detection now works, I get snapshots to cell phone. And "F" appears in the single-camera playback screen (along with "A" for Alarm, and "R" for the hourly Reset)
ivs: (FD is lame however)(line cross is strongest feature of ivs, IMHO)
fastb
marid2apterbilt
Young grasshopper
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2015
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 7
So far I've gotten no reply to emails from the USA retailer I bought my NVR. there about to get ousted for non existent post sales support. isn't that the reason for buying USA and not imports. rant over..
Quick question for those with IVS working on there NVR..
Are all your cameras Smart IVS capable or do you have a mix.
Reading the thread linked on pg4 it states non IVS cameras will not function thus IVS option is not selectable if non IVS cameras are connected
Quick question for those with IVS working on there NVR..
Are all your cameras Smart IVS capable or do you have a mix.
Reading the thread linked on pg4 it states non IVS cameras will not function thus IVS option is not selectable if non IVS cameras are connected
nayr
IPCT Contributor
Ive got 5 Non-IVS cameras and 2 IVS cameras.. havent touched the firmware on any of em and they all work.