Ukraine related: Was Ukraine Government Is Handing Out Guns To Citizens, What Happened to Gun Control?

Griswalduk

Getting comfortable
Joined
Mar 30, 2021
Messages
326
Reaction score
610
Location
Uk
Nice of you to post some propaganda material posted on a website willing to host such. It's also nice that setting out the case for a fake video the author of the article actually proves it's legitimacy in key areas. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is something the regime and it's sympathiser's are going to have to get used to :D

In reply to his alternative reality


Inconsistency in the position of shadows in different parts of the video

The shadows are entirely consistent. Looking at the shadows cast by immovable objects like the building on the road and the gateposts on the footpath from different angles it would take a lay person 5 minutes to draw this conclusion.

Factual status - statement untrue


▪ Cropped dates, and where they are visible, some footage from different days and hours

Could be due to any number of factors in a war torn country. Power outages, network problems, lack of skilled personnel, lack of maintenance and yes also subterfuge and fakery so

Factual status - inconclusive


▪ Oddities in the staging: military waiting for a command, unclear where the second military man went, cut out part of the watchman's death

There is no real waiting time and the second solder can be seen clearly from another viewpoint. See BBC report on same incident link provided

Factual status - statement untrue


▪ The interior of the gatehouse is different in different shots

Clearly the site is fairly large. There is a number of different gatehouses and rooms featured in the video.

Factual status - statement untrue

▪ The uniforms of the Russian Armed Forces do not match

Russia has been all over the place since it invaded. The Ukraine is littered with Soviet machinery and other shite from Stalin was in short trousers.

Factual status - so what

▪ The vehicle is marked "tank special forces," there is no such unit

The vehicle is stolen and it's been painted / defaced by the Russian solders in a war scenario. They are part of Putin's Bungalow Brigade....so called because there's fuck up upstairs :D

Factual status - so what

▪ In the first part of the report there was apparently a real patrol. But nobody shoots at civilians there

This is likely because they were on the hunt for loot and had yet to come across civilians who would get in the way.

Factual status - so what

Another point is made about the yellow car. This car is always there and using the kerb lines for reference it's simply out of shot in some scenes and it can clearly be seen in others. The only time it disappears is when the solders steal it.

Hope this helps

 

tigerwillow1

Known around here
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
2,469
Reaction score
4,582
Could you provide some Russian footage of atrocities or preferably links to the forum / website you mentioned so I / we may similarly critique.
Here it is: Ukraine

Over 4,000 posts in 3 months, about 45 per day on average. While this ipcamtalk thread is mostly a "russia bad" echo chamber, the other one is quite a bit opposite. Since I'm not in a position to fact check most of the claims I'm not claiming to know the truth, and I do believe Russia puts out a lot of propaganda. What I'm pushing back against here is how easily the US/western propaganda is being believed, in light of the history of all of the recent lies and censorship by the governments, media, and fact checkers. I bought the Iraq WMD lie back in that day. I don't think the MIC has become more honest since then. I'd like comb through the other thread and provide direct links to some specific posts, but I'm already spending more time than I should. Maybe I should post here the next believable "ukraine bad" post that I see. I've so far refrained because I'm not wanting to contribute to a lot of online conflict.
 

tigerwillow1

Known around here
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
2,469
Reaction score
4,582
This one has been de-bunked .. mirror issues .. was not a hand, was not moving, certainly was a dead body ..
(2) A video from a moving vehicle showing body bags lining the side of a Ukrainian street, where somebody spotted a body crawling out of one of the bags after the vehicle had passed by, shown in the side mirror image.

Media and Journalists now are far more lazy and many fail to do a good job .. lots of evidence of main stream media failing ..

War crimes have clearly been systematically committed by Russian Troops in Ukraine .. plenty of evidence on that ..
I looked up and read some of the debunking articles, and they make their point. I wasn't able to view the video myself now because everywhere I found it requires creating an account I don't want to have. Doesn't matter a whole lot, since videos can be hacked and fact checkers lie according to their agenda. Media and journalists lazy? So many times they pull crap from twitter and post it with the appearance of verified fact. It pains me that conservative outlets do it too. As such, I don't believe the evidence of russian war crimes either way. I do believe that western governments have committed war crimes on their own citizens last year and this year, showing that they're certainly willing to do the same in ukraine. What has actually been done there, I do not claim to know.
 

tigerwillow1

Known around here
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
2,469
Reaction score
4,582
Now, ask ..
  • Was there a significant atrocity problem in Ukraine before Russian invasion in 2014?
  • Was there a significant atrocity problem in Ukraine before Russian more invasion in Feb 2022?
  • Was there a significant atrocity problem in and around Kiev / Kyiv?
  • Which side is allowing 3rd parties to inspect atrocities, and allowing them to inspect the evidence?
  • Did Ukraine give up Nuclear weapons for guarantees of border security from Russia and USA?
  • How was the vote in the UN to condemn this action vs Russia ( for and against )?
  • What is the history of KGB / Soviet State truthfulness?
  • What is the history of CIA / White House truthfulness?
  • What is the history of Ukraine?
  • What is the history of Russia?
  • What is the history o Russian treatment of Ukraine?
  • History of WWII and actions which could have been done to reduce the conflict ..
I sure wish I knew history enough to answer all of these. If I tried to research and learn it all now I'd be totally consumed. I clearly remember being taught in elementary school in the 1950s that USA never starts conflicts and joins them only when it's unavoidable and a righteous cause. I also remember the 16mm movie that showed as settled science that all of earth's oil would be pumped out in 10 years. I look back now in disbelief how badly I've bought into agenda driven propaganda. And even knowing this I can still fall for it.
 

mat200

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
9,443
Reaction score
12,476
Here it is: Ukraine

.. While this ipcamtalk thread is mostly a "russia bad" echo chamber, the other one is quite a bit opposite. ...
The fact remains, Russia invaded a Soveregion State - disrespecting the State's boundaries, attempted to make up all sorts of falsehoods to justify this.

As a result of this, the world now will have a major impact due to energy and food costs going up, and no European country near Russia wants to see Russia succeed a redrawing the borders, as they recall WWII.

Question to those thinking Russia is in the right :

Do you think Ukraine has agency? ( that is they get to have their own rulers, and a say in their own nation? )

Sorry @tigerwillow1 if you believe Russia is in any way right to have invaded Ukraine .. I have to 100% disagree with that regardless of how corrupt any government is ( Ukriane, USA, Russia, China, .. etc .. ) regardless of the various authoritarian actions by other governments .. allowing redrawing of borders of nations is very dangerous to the stability of the world.
 

mat200

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
9,443
Reaction score
12,476
I sure wish I knew history enough to answer all of these. If I tried to research and learn it all now I'd be totally consumed. I clearly remember being taught in elementary school in the 1950s that USA never starts conflicts and joins them only when it's unavoidable and a righteous cause. I also remember the 16mm movie that showed as settled science that all of earth's oil would be pumped out in 10 years. I look back now in disbelief how badly I've bought into agenda driven propaganda. And even knowing this I can still fall for it.
USA indeed has some trust issues ..

SO ...

What you learned in school:
Nazi Germany started WWII

Actual Fact:
War in Europe started as a pact between Nazi Germany and Soviet Union / Russia ( Russia being in the drivers seat ) making a deal to split Eastern Europe between the 2 of them ..

Why were you taught USSR was not a party to starting the war ? .. because the UK and USA had to ally with USSR / Russia after 1941 to defeat Nazi Germany in Europe - and of course that's a hard sell to Americans that they are teaming up with a murderous regime. Thus history was white washed.

Just like after the war the German Army was white washed .. and it was all Hilters and the SS fault .. we know it was not, and that many of those we allied with in Western Germany vs USSR in the cold war were not innocent of war crimes .. we only cleaned up the worst ones ..

Britain also back stabbed the Poles .. did not even allow them to join the victory parade ..
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2022
Messages
17
Reaction score
5
Location
Moscow
Let's get straight to the point @N-i-k-s-o-n are you stating Russia DO NOT commit war crimes in Bucha?
Yes, I consider the information about the involvement of the Russian army in the so-called "massacre in Bucha" a fake.
I guess we'll find out the truth after a while, just like in the case of Colin Powell's test tube.
 

mat200

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
9,443
Reaction score
12,476
Yes, I consider the information about the involvement of the Russian army in the so-called "massacre in Bucha" a fake.
I guess we'll find out the truth after a while, just like in the case of Colin Powell's test tube.
How much money are you will to put down on that?
 

tigerwillow1

Known around here
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
2,469
Reaction score
4,582
Sorry @tigerwillow1 if you believe Russia is in any way right to have invaded Ukraine .. I have to 100% disagree with that regardless of how corrupt any government is ( Ukriane, USA, Russia, China, .. etc .. ) regardless of the various authoritarian actions by other governments .. allowing redrawing of borders of nations is very dangerous to the stability of the world.
We're not looking at this from the same perspective. For analogies, a year or so ago a fox killed all of my chickens. I don't think the fox had a right. Speaking for the fox, he thought he did. In hindsight, I had warnings and could have prevented it happening. I therefore assign the blame to myself even though the fox did the killing. When a dog bites, it's often clearly the owner's fault even though the dog did it. What if russia felt threatened by NATO expansion, and reacted like the fox or the dog? If that were to be the case, the western governments could have prevented it. Kick the dog and it might bite back. Is the dog to blame? When USSR went to put missiles into Cuba, did USA have the right to engage their ships in international waters? (Rhetorical question not trying to open that debate). I try to look at conflicts from both sides. If I were Russia I'd feel threatened by NATO on my border. And now our response is to increase the pressure with talk of Finland entering NATO. It looks to me like we kicked the bear, and when it clawed back our response is to kick it harder.
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2022
Messages
17
Reaction score
5
Location
Moscow
USA indeed has some trust issues ..

SO ...

What you learned in school:
Nazi Germany started WWII

Actual Fact:
War in Europe started as a pact between Nazi Germany and Soviet Union / Russia ( Russia being in the drivers seat ) making a deal to split Eastern Europe between the 2 of them ..

Why were you taught USSR was not a party to starting the war ? .. because the UK and USA had to ally with USSR / Russia after 1941 to defeat Nazi Germany in Europe - and of course that's a hard sell to Americans that they are teaming up with a murderous regime. Thus history was white washed.

Just like after the war the German Army was white washed .. and it was all Hilters and the SS fault .. we know it was not, and that many of those we allied with in Western Germany vs USSR in the cold war were not innocent of war crimes .. we only cleaned up the worst ones ..

Britain also back stabbed the Poles .. did not even allow them to join the victory parade ..
Oh, I'm also interested in the history of the Second World War. Getting skeletons out of closets is more interesting together.
Read about the 1938 Munich Pact between Nazi Germany, Great Britain, France and Italy, according to which not only Germany received part of the Czech Republic, but also Poland - the "hyena of Europe" (Churchill).
You can also read about the appeasement policy of France and Britain towards Germany.
Or you can also remember that the persecution of Jews in Germany began in 1933, and athletes from the United States and Britain, in particular, took part in the Olympic Games in Germany in 1936. Or about the Japanese detachment 371, which performed absolutely monstrous experiments on people, primarily the Chinese, but the leaders of this detachment continued to work in the United States.
 

mat200

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
9,443
Reaction score
12,476
Oh, I'm also interested in the history of the Second World War. Getting skeletons out of closets is more interesting together.
..
FYI -
One of the better WWII history channels on Youtube .. while not perfect, he is much better than many others as he is always evaluating the traditional story when new evidence comes in:

He's got a lot of content worth watching:


We're not looking at this from the same perspective. For analogies, a year or so ago a fox killed all of my chickens. I don't think the fox had a right. Speaking for the fox, he thought he did. ..
I think the Chickens have issues with the fox even if you are ok with the fox eating some chickens ..

Now, then the Chickens start to beat the fox .. well, don't be sorry for the fox ..

 

Griswalduk

Getting comfortable
Joined
Mar 30, 2021
Messages
326
Reaction score
610
Location
Uk
I sure wish I knew history enough to answer all of these. If I tried to research and learn it all now I'd be totally consumed. I clearly remember being taught in elementary school in the 1950s that USA never starts conflicts and joins them only when it's unavoidable and a righteous cause. I also remember the 16mm movie that showed as settled science that all of earth's oil would be pumped out in 10 years. I look back now in disbelief how badly I've bought into agenda driven propaganda. And even knowing this I can still fall for it.
@tigerwillow1 thanks for the link.

I had a quick look and i can't find anything there with any substance to critique. Going back 5 pages or so all i can see is posts from about 10 people who i doubt are of sound mind quoting Kremlin approved material. There's also a couple of fanatics, again of doubtful mind, on YouTube. Alarm bells should be ringing when they start they start throwing words like pariahs and messiahs about.

More to be pitied than laughed at or taken seriously. There's a lot of those posts aren't going to age too well.

The price of freedom

 

mat200

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
9,443
Reaction score
12,476
in general I found this series of talks interesting on this topic, here is one in particular covering NATO
( note, I do disagree about his not being critical of the Biden Administration failure on the debacle of the USA leaving Afghanistan without proper coordination with the USA's NATO allies in Afghanistan .. as a result of 9/11 attack on USA a NATO state .. )


" .. I don't think that Finland and Sweden would have joined NATO was it not for Putin's attack on Ukraine .. in that sense I think Putin has mixed tactics with strategy if and when his aim was to keep Finland and Sweden outside of NATO .. "

Understanding the War in Ukraine (8) - NATO (Russia/Finland/Sweden)

 
Last edited:

Griswalduk

Getting comfortable
Joined
Mar 30, 2021
Messages
326
Reaction score
610
Location
Uk
We're not looking at this from the same perspective. For analogies, a year or so ago a fox killed all of my chickens. I don't think the fox had a right. Speaking for the fox, he thought he did. In hindsight, I had warnings and could have prevented it happening. I therefore assign the blame to myself even though the fox did the killing. When a dog bites, it's often clearly the owner's fault even though the dog did it. What if russia felt threatened by NATO expansion, and reacted like the fox or the dog? If that were to be the case, the western governments could have prevented it. Kick the dog and it might bite back. Is the dog to blame? When USSR went to put missiles into Cuba, did USA have the right to engage their ships in international waters? (Rhetorical question not trying to open that debate). I try to look at conflicts from both sides. If I were Russia I'd feel threatened by NATO on my border. And now our response is to increase the pressure with talk of Finland entering NATO. It looks to me like we kicked the bear, and when it clawed back our response is to kick it harder.
Thoughtful analogy and i appreciate what your saying but for it to have merit the said chicken in its coop, cage, yard, home would need to be threatening the fox. Using your analogy it would be more likely that the fox ( a natural born predator ) would enter the chicken coop and devour the chickens at will.

Furthermore a sly fox will also let on to be intimidated.
 

Griswalduk

Getting comfortable
Joined
Mar 30, 2021
Messages
326
Reaction score
610
Location
Uk
@tigerwillow1 further to my previous post where i said i found little of substance in the Ukraine thread you provided the link for ( thanks btw) I have a confession to make. And blow by blow it goes like this

Curiosity got the better of me and i went back to it.

I confess...... i was going to debate with the guys there and offer some constructive criticism :) ya know how it is..... all's fair in love and war lol

Since the site had a whiff of dodgyness about it i tried to register using 10 minutemail and ironically i needed approval from the moderators to exercise my right to free speech. Since the email has expired I'll have to whistle for it.

So I took the opportunity to look around.

Searching for something of interest i found enlightening threads such as why does smoke follow you around the campfire and what uses more 3x25w bulbs or 1x75w bulb.

In conclusion the war on Ukraine is the least of that sites worries. You'll find a find a better clientele here thanks to @fenderman. I / we salute you for running a tidy ship
 

tigerwillow1

Known around here
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
2,469
Reaction score
4,582
Going back 5 pages or so all i can see is posts from about 10 people who i doubt are of sound mind quoting Kremlin approved material. There's also a couple of fanatics, again of doubtful mind, on YouTube.
No doubt there's a lot of crap on that forum that needs to be sifted through. One video I don't know the link to was very convincing. It was a journalist supposedly interviewing Ukrainians sheltered in the basement of a school or factory (sorry about my imprecise memory), with the Ukrainians saying how they were being terrorized by the Ukrainian military that blocked all of their escape routes. While it was convincing, it could also be totally faked, so I take in the info knowing maybe it's real, and maybe it's not.

You'll find a find a better clientele here thanks to @fenderman. I / we salute you for running a tidy ship
I second that motion! And a reason I'm reluctant to post links to videos here, no matter how convincing they look to me.

Another thought I have is I wonder how the Biden/Pelosi/Romney Ukrainian money laundering enterprise fits into the big picture?

And to end this post, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer reportedly said today “I know there’s a lot of politics here, but we’re at war". Plus, Peppermint Patty has also referred to "this war" in her official capacity. It feels like the democrat war mongers want us in there shooting, and there are plenty of republican war mongers to back them up.
 
Top