1000 yd hit with a 9mm revolver!

[fenderman]

That might even help reduce flow of guns purchased legally in the US (largely in Texas) that are illegally transported to Mexico.

Do you have any ideas that might actually reduce gun related deaths? More guns for everyone (certainly what the gun mfgs want)? Mandatory gun safety classes? Improving mental health care?

Thankfully the average nut job doesn't have much if any training, there are exceptions. How many more soccer mom's need to get killed accidentally by their 3 yo before we do something?

I realize that the vast majority of gun owners here are responsible, but I've earned more than a bit of cynicism and rage on the subject of guns in America.

More guns for everyone would help, but more importantly, enforce the laws that are already on the books....the accidental soccer mom deaths are negligible under 500 per year....considering the deaths by other accidents this is a non issue....accidents happen...should we stop boating? how about we limit cars to 55mph on the highways and 25 city..when i say limit i mean with mandatory gps speed governors...dont want that do you....the only way to eliminate accidental gun deaths is to completely remove them...that flies in the face of the second amendment, but more importantly would be deadly to law abiding gun owners to use for their own personal safety....WAY more than 500 lives are saved per year by law abiding citizens using their firearms....gun control is a feel good do nothing reaction by liberals to disarm the citizenry...tough gun control is the most illogical response to gun related deaths ...yet liberals begin yelling about it on pulpits made of dead bodies before they are warm.
btw, for the record, I do not own a firearm. I dont need one, but I sure as hell want the opportunity to obtain one should the need arise.

 

[bigredfish]

I've always said that I will gladly give up all of my firearms, (well the ones that weren't lost in the tragic boating accident) when someone can 100% Guarantee me that the Bad Guys wont have any either, and that a Cop will guard my door each night and walk me to my car in the dark in the parking lot of WallyWorld. (Of course I'm leaving out the real and original reason for the 2nd Amendment but that's another and more complex discussion)

Ideas to slow or deter violent crime? Sure, stronger enforcement, longer prison sentencing, and reigning in the cancer that is political correctness.

Facts are a funny thing. Many otherwise smart and well intention'd folks fall victim to the false narrative of the anti-gun crusade. Evil exists, and no amount of laws are going to change that, nor is ignoring the facts that contradict the anti gun argument. Why not be upset about the opium crisis killing 30,000-50,000 this year? Mostly kids. There are a hell of a lot of laws on the books prohibiting the selling, use, and possession of heroin, but those laws and that 10X size (vs guns) problem killing our youth don't seem to get near the same attention, at least its not as well funded as the anti gun lobby. One might pontificate that there is a reason for that disparity...but i digress

Actually more guns in the hands of legal citizens HAS had some effect on violent crime since the late 80's/early 90's. At the very least ignoring any direct cause and effect argument, one CAN say that a huge increase in legally owned guns by Joe Q Public did NOT have the effect of any INCREASE in violent crime. Coincidentally 1989-1991 marks the period where violent crime peaked and States began actively adopting 'Shall Issue" concealed carry permits.

There has been a tick up in violent crime in the past 3 years, mostly in the cities I referred to earlier, and almost without fail, due to the PC climate and "kinder gentler" theory of law enforcement, along with LEO's in those areas backing off non-essential enforcement fearing they'll be the next national poster child for "Police Brutality"

* Note: in the spirit of correct facts, I was wrong about the 2 second mag change by soccer mom's, it's closer to 2.5 seconds on average according to my partner

 

[Fastb]

The US is an outlier. So many gun homocides versus other countries.

We own a lot of guns, comparatively speaking:

Me, I'd welcome some changes, to change the current situation. I don't think everything is hunky dory. I know there isn't a single change that would prevent shootings, whether a change to mental health care, gang violence, terrorist lone shooter, immigration law changes, etc. But to stymie any change because it wouldn't have stopped (Las Vegas, Texas, San Bernadino, Sandy Hook, Alexandria [Scalise]) is illogical, IMHO.

Something should change, based on the data. Society should wrestle with it.

I own guns, and know lots of folks who do....

 

[Q™]

I've always said that I will gladly give up all of my firearms...

That’s a very cute post, except it’s so loaded with hyperbole it causes any meaningful discuss of thre issue to become mired in bullshit. Who suggested you have to give up your firearms? And Fenderman, who suggested that those who don’t have guns won’t be allowed to purchase them?

You guys seem to be arguing with some folks who aren’t participating in this discussion.

 

[fenderman]

The US is an outlier. So many gun homocides versus other countries.

We own a lot of guns, comparatively speaking:

Me, I'd welcome some changes, to change the current situation. I don't think everything is hunky dory. I know there isn't a single change that would prevent shootings, whether a change to mental health care, gang violence, terrorist lone shooter, immigration law changes, etc. But to stymie any change because it wouldn't have stopped (Las Vegas, Texas, San Bernadino, Sandy Hook, Alexandria [Scalise]) is illogical, IMHO.

Something should change, based on the data. Society should wrestle with it.

I own guns, and know lots of folks who do....

These charts manipulate statistics and dont account for overall crime rates and death by other means....there is ZERO evidence that the changes you wish to implement would actually do anything to prevent violence and death. Furthermore, it takes away the power from the individual to protect themselves. It is very easy for middle class folks who live in white picket fence communities to come up with these nonsensical "solutions" because it doesn't affect them. Go live in the hood or in the mountains for a day, and your outlook will change. Again, all the mass shooting you mentions - for effect- are literally nothing - not a blip on the death radar...want to save lives go march and demand they send the national guard into chicago...HeyJackass! 623 homicides by ILLEGAL gun owners. We are at 311 in baltimore...Miscellaneous Posts: 2017 Baltimore City Homicides - List and Map
so there you have it, 1000 lives can be saved...do something...dont take the guns away from legal gun owners because "well we HAVE to do something"...that makes no sense...like I said, when would you like me to fit your car with a speed governor? 37,757 deaths per year by auto....way too much...we need to do something...its horrific...no more backyard pools either...we NEED to do something...you cant have your nice pool, children die...

 

[fenderman]

That’s a very cute post, except it’s so loaded with hyperbole it causes any meaningful discuss of thre issue to become mired in bullshit. Who suggested you have to give up your firearms? And Fenderman, who suggested that those who don’t have guns won’t be allowed to purchase them?

You guys seem to be arguing with some folks who aren’t participating in this discussion.

That is the end game and you know it...again, ZERO evidence that your "Solutions" work..just feel good stupidity...enforce the damn laws on the books - they are not doing it...so wtf is the point...hamper law abiding citizens...yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Q™]

That is the end game and you know it...

That is the end game for the lunatic leftist fringe and that would be unconstitutional which the courts would strike down faster than your mother can unbutton her dress.

 

[fenderman]

That is the end game for the lunatic leftist fringe and that would be unconstitutional which the courts would strike down faster than your mother can unbutton her dress.

They have basically succeeded in many states where it is almost impossible to obtain a carry permit..

 

[bigredfish]

All in favor of those... as are most gun owners..
...whether a change to mental health care, gang violence, terrorist lone shooter, immigration law changes,

Three out the 4 can be improved greatly by enforcing existing law. Figure out how to stop a lone wolf whacko and they'll make you King.

 

[Q™]

I gave my Keltec Sub2000 away rather then comply with Cuomo’s new registration requirements. But I can live with that asshole’s new law because no one really NEEDS a Sub2k. It’s a fact that all I truly need to defend myself is my 870P and my .308 BAR. And no one is going to take those weapons from me because I am a law abiding responsible American citizen. NO ONE.

 

[Fastb]

These charts manipulate statistics and dont account for overall crime rates and death by other means....there is ZERO evidence that the changes you wish to implement would actually do anything to prevent violence and death.

A chart I posted showed homocides by 3 methods, so it does show death rates by other means, ie: firearm, sharp object, and other means. The "Firearms" category in the US is higher:

The murder by "sharp object" is closer, proportionally, to other countries.

These charts manipulate statistics

Some info posted by fenderman and bigredfish was contradicting the charts I posted. Made me curious. Also, I didn't want to be "manipulated" by statistics. So I went to Snopes.

It's not white/black. Snopes rates it as a mixture of "true" and "false"
Gun Murders per 100,000 Residents


bigredfish provided a chart from Gun Facts - Debunking Gun Control Myths that showed property crimes declined as gun ownership increased. My first through was "correlation is not causation".
So I visited that site. Very pro-gun. Might they be using statistics to manipulate?

Another visit to Snopes, to check the claim that higher rates of gun ownership correlated with lower crime rates.
The assertion is false.
FALSE: Harvard University Study Reveals Astonishing Link Between Firearms, Crime and Gun Control

Figure out how to stop a lone wolf whacko and they'll make you King.

I wanna be King!
I wasn't bringing up any proposed changes for discussion. I was lamenting that the status quo remains, despite the outcomes of the current system.
The two sides aren't talking well with each other. And both sides are manipulating statistics to keep the discussion polarized.

Re lone wolf whacko: Can't stop them. But maybe we could ban bump stocks. (hasn't happened yet that I heard about). Maybe re-instate the assault rifle ban that lapsed a few years ago. Ban very large ammo mags. I can hear the reply "banning bump stocks wouldn't have done squat in the stopping the Texas Church shooting, so banning bump stocks isn't worth doing".

And we're left with the status quo. Maybe not. Parishioners will carry to church more often now. Or more soccer moms will start carrying...

Something's gotta change. We're not going in a good direction....

Fastb

 

[TonyR]

I'm sure there's truth to that. We have the NRA which is IMO 99.8% lobbying for bump stocks, military grade hardware, and no background checks, 0.02% gun safety.

I realize that you said 'IMO' but I am curious: just where did you get those percentages?

 

[TonyR]

And no one is going to take those weapons from me because I am a law abiding responsible American citizen. NO ONE.

Oh, they can have mine....when they pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

 

[fenderman]

A chart I posted showed homocides by 3 methods, so it does show death rates by other means, ie: firearm, sharp object, and other means. The "Firearms" category in the US is higher:

The murder by "sharp object" is closer, proportionally, to other countries.


Some info posted by fenderman and bigredfish was contradicting the charts I posted. Made me curious. Also, I didn't want to be "manipulated" by statistics. So I went to Snopes.

It's not white/black. Snopes rates it as a mixture of "true" and "false"
Gun Murders per 100,000 Residents


bigredfish provided a chart from Gun Facts - Debunking Gun Control Myths that showed property crimes declined as gun ownership increased. My first through was "correlation is not causation".
So I visited that site. Very pro-gun. Might they be using statistics to manipulate?

Another visit to Snopes, to check the claim that higher rates of gun ownership correlated with lower crime rates.
The assertion is false.
FALSE: Harvard University Study Reveals Astonishing Link Between Firearms, Crime and Gun Control


I wanna be King!
I wasn't bringing up any proposed changes for discussion. I was lamenting that the status quo remains, despite the outcomes of the current system.
The two sides aren't talking well with each other. And both sides are manipulating statistics to keep the discussion polarized.

Re lone wolf whacko: Can't stop them. But maybe we could ban bump stocks. (hasn't happened yet that I heard about). Maybe re-instate the assault rifle ban that lapsed a few years ago. Ban very large ammo mags. I can hear the reply "banning bump stocks wouldn't have done squat in the stopping the Texas Church shooting, so banning bump stocks isn't worth doing".

And we're left with the status quo. Maybe not. Parishioners will carry to church more often now. Or more soccer moms will start carrying...

Something's gotta change. We're not going in a good direction....

Fastb

snopes is one of the worst offenders...again...no data suggests that ANY of these silly rules they want to implement would result in any significant change in murder rates...
harvard, you do understand the political agenda of a place like harvard?
rather than post useless snopes links, take a look at the data yourself...
buy a book like this https://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660
then sit there and convince yourself that YOU have the right to make a determination about another individuals right to protect themselves, when even on the best year you are looking at very low numbers when you account for self defense and clean police shootings and suicide...
The most important thing though is that all this is completely academic, the second amendment gives each citizen the right to protection...this silly notion that we must limit that right because others die is ridiculous. I will prove it now. The fourth amendment provides protections against illegal searches and seizures...I can easily save 100k lives a year if not more, if we abolish this amendment...we can search every suspected drug house, cars etc...prevent countless overdoses, gang violence etc....so lets do that first...then move to the second amendment...see how silly that argument is?

 

[Q™]

Oh, they can have mine....when they pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

What value does this add to the debate? I’d bet a dollar to donuts that you, like most, would fold as soon as the police came and put a gun in your face. Go down in a blaze of glory, eh? Bullshit.

 

[TonyR]

What value does this add to the debate? I’d bet a dollar to donuts that you, like most, would fold as soon as the police came and put a gun in your face. Go down in a blaze of glory, eh? Bullshit.

Do you feel better now?

 

[bigredfish]

Sorry @Fastb I linked to the wrong chart from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, I simply pulled the chart from the Gunfacts website.
The data is by BJS (Justice Dept)

See the data I meant to link to here showing gun ownership over 10 years increasing by roughly 50% and gun crime decreasing by roughly the same amount. Gun crime and violent crime in general has been decreasing dramatically since about 1991. That is indisputable along with the fact that gun ownership has skyrocketed in the same period.
Chart of the day: More guns, less gun violence between 1993 and 2013 - AEI
Disarming Realities: As Gun Sales Soar, Gun Crimes Plummet

On the rate per capita stuff, I directly mentioned and the numbers show, that per capita rates regarding GUN DEATHS was a poor way to look at the US rate. Look at TOTAL gun deaths and subtract Suicides (+20,000 deaths) and 7 liberal bastion counties out of 3100 (+5000 deaths) in the US and you have a rather small (less than 5000 deaths) relative problem to most other forms of death in the US.

Harvard Study: Snopes is more than liberally slanted and downright wrong in this case, they ceased being a legitimate reference many years ago.

The Harvard Study was/is renowned BECAUSE it was done under such a liberal leaning institution and found the OPPOSITE of what Snopes and the anti-gun crowd hoped it would , You can read it here: Jump to page 670 and the conclusion on page 693. The study shows correlation not 100% proof but it clearly dispels the theory "less guns less crime".
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
A short synopsis here also
Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive

 

[Fastb]

bigredfish and fenderman:
You don't trust the Snopes fact checking. Ok.
What balanced and credible fact checking site do you recommend?
Untainted, not a biased site. A site that both sides of the conversation can trust?
The previous site where you plucked some charts, is not an unbiased site. It has a definite pro-gun agenda. Nothing wrong with being pro-gun, but let's acknowledge their bias.

Nowadays, if a source has "news" that one side may not want to hear, the source is discredited. Both sides are guilty of that.
IMHO, people prefer news sources that say what aligns with their personal beliefs. CNN viewers don't watch Fox. I listen to Fox, CNN, MSNBC, PBS, BBC. The whole spectrum.
Being an engineer, I want cold hard facts. Not spin.

I Do Not want to be manipulated by spun "statistics" from one side or the other. And i won't stick fingers in my ears to block facts that aren't aligned with my pre-believed "truths".
I want data. Unbiased data doesn't lie. I Will Not be a rube, manipulated.

 

[wantafastz28]

Apparently, America isn't tired enough. We don't need all that stuff brother. In my opinion, what we need is reasonable, enforced, gun control legislation and the availability of better mental healthcare. Until then it's gonna be Massacre > Thoughts & Prayers > Left & Right Political Bullshit > Repeat Ad Infinitum.

Gun control won't fix this. People easily forget history. Charles Whitman, Timothy McVeigh, and lunatics with 9/11. All caused massacres in the past, and none of your gun control could of stopped them. The problem is, people only see the bad on TV and often disregard the people that save themselves or their families with guns from robbers, killers, rapers, etc. daily. It just happened yesterday here. A woman was opening the door to her house, and a robber ransacking the place was in there, she tried to run away, and the guy chased her down. She was able to shoot him and get away. Who knows what would of happened if she didn't have a gun. Most people won't understand until they are put in a situation like this.

 

[bigredfish]

@Fastb Totally Agree. The data I have pointed to comes from these primary sources:

The Bureau of Justice Statistics (US Dept of Justice) Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS)
CDC
The FBI UCR https://ucr.fbi.gov/ucr-publications
Pew Research
Harvard research...

Snopes is anything but unbiased and I wouldnt include them with the above references from which most of the data I presented here comes from.