Dahua 4k Starlight with 1/2 sensor (CVI only for now)

[mat200]

...

Here's some hands on pictures though. It's rather compact, w/ no visible way to disassemble the housing (not so great).
..]

FYI - In the thread: FYI - Some local Costco B&M have a Lorex / Dahua OEM 4K 6x camera kit and 8 port NVR for $800

Thanks to @rkilpa who describes what you need to do for the similar form factor bullet cameras that came with that kit. Looks like it should be the same.
FYI - Some local Costco B&M have a Lorex / Dahua OEM 4K 6x camera kit and 8 port NVR for $800

 

[Parley]

IMHO the 5231 looks a little sharper. Maybe you need to adjust the focus on the 1831 a little?

 

[bp2008]

Thanks, @Burton_Flooring

That comparison isn't very flattering for the 1831, is it I'd say it is only slightly better than the older 4K cam, and a long way from the 2MP starlight.

 

[Burton_Flooring]

Agreed

 

[LittleScoobyMaster]

Thanks, @Burton_Flooring

That comparison isn't very flattering for the 1831, is it I'd say it is only slightly better than the older 4K cam, and a long way from the 2MP starlight.

Well this is a disappointment and a half.

Seems like we'll be waiting forever for a decent 4k low light sensor to rival that of the 5231. It's as if we've reached the end of Moore's Law, but with low light sensors. Reminds me of the 56k modem for some reason.

 

[mat200]

Well this is a disappointment and a half. Seems like we'll be waiting forever for a decent 4k low light sensor to rival that of the 5231.

FYI - one already exists... just a question of opening up your pocket book at little more..

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/productDetail/17961

 

[Burton_Flooring]

This wouldn't be too bad but it's $350 https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/productDetail/6321

I'll keep posting updates here as I get this mounted outdoors and possibly get firmware updated. (very wonky out of the gate).

I'm not sure if this is actually 1/1.8" Sensor, but it's at least 1/2" because it's definitely larger than the 8MP "Pro" series cam.



I did do a re-focus on the lens today! Here's my take apart thanks to @mat200 for the tip on peeling off the front of the camera






It seems to have a pretty decent optics package (from what little I know )

 

[Burton_Flooring]

So far, I'm liking this camera more than the "Pro Series" 8MP.

Although it only has a max Bitrate of 8192kbps and they have a stupid glitch w/ the WebUI (settings sliders and an "IR Light" option that does nothing....)

This does provide a better image than the other fixed focus 8MP that I had, (I even refocused it to see if that was the issue, but the "Pro" Series just provides a softer image).

Indoors static image (All settings Auto for both cameras) H.265 @ 8192kbps

4830EM-AS


1831E



The other thing that is really nice, is that they let you take the frame rate all the way to 25fps.

The "Pro" line 8MP only go to 14fps@4K. Most of the time you will wind up running them @5MP because they generate so much noise in 4K that the lower resolution is much cleaner.

 

[CCTVCam]

Well this is a disappointment and a half.

Seems like we'll be waiting forever for a decent 4k low light sensor to rival that of the 5231. It's as if we've reached the end of Moore's Law, but with low light sensors. Reminds me of the 56k modem for some reason.

The low light sensors exist, just not in cheaply available CCTV cameras or in smaller formats.

eg. (Comparisons start at 1 min 15 secs for those who are impatient with the scene setting):




Who wouldn't want that picture performance?

However, it's going to be a much larger more expensive sensor and this impacts lens cost as well. It doesn't look to me as though Sony has much interest in putting sensors like these out to the CCTV market. I'm sure I read a photographic writer somewhere, who said that he believes sensors like this with the best performance, are reserved exclusively for Sonys own brand cameras and not even released to the SLR OEM market at all - I couldn't verify the truth or accuracy of the latter opinion.

Another issue is bit rate though. I don't know what the A7S uses in video mode, but I'm pretty sure it could be around 10x the bit rate in 4K than you're seeing here. In my opinion, 8,000mbs is way too low. Good for storage but with the h264 equivolent being around 16,000mbs, it's way less than any other video camera I can think of. Yes, CCTV has different requirements but storage is finite and the cameras run constantly. However, for me the figure of 8,000mbs looks way too low. I'd rather see 3 times that ie around 24,000mbs using h.265 and then evaluate it from there. Yes that means 1/3 rd the storage. But you can't keep cramming more info into the same space if you want to get out decent quality. Even if manufacturers were afraid of losing market share on storage comparisons, then at least give it as an option ie. 8,000mbs standard, 16,000, 24,000 as options in the firmware. That way every purchaser can use the camera and priotise their own agenda be it storage space or quality.

There is one bit of hope with the above sensor, albeit demand due to size for the CCTV market is probably an issue, and that is Sony has just produced an A7Sii (Mk 2) camera, meaning the original A7Si sensor is probably no longer their current top sensor product.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Burton_Flooring]

Agreed. The only saving grace here is the H.265, and even then, I'm only running this at like 4-7fps. Not sure how much would be lost by running higher fps because, for ID purposes, it doesn't matter.

Maybe they'll increase the bit-rate w/ a firmware update. I have the 5MP "H.265 Lite" camera and the bitrate on that is the same as all the rest Max: 10240kbps....so, not sure why they would shoot themselves in the foot like that...seems like they would have logically put the 8192kbps cap on the lower 2 or 5MP cameras.

The lux ratings are ridiculous (these don't compare to a starlight) but they do compare very similarly to the 5MP (.02 1/3 shutter, .2 1/30 shutter). And the jury is still out on the actual size of the sensor, bottome line, the specs on this camera are way out of wack, but it is still a better deal than the Pro series 8MP in my opinion.

 

[wopi82]

@CCTVCam

A7s is a fairly old camera announced back in 2014. There is already A7SIII on the market. I wouldn't compare it to any CCTV cam, as its a full frame sensor camera. Its sensor area is 35 times larger than 1/2.5 inch sensor from for example HDW5831R-Z. Also consider that while the sensor in A7s has 4240 x 2832 pixels, it is recording only fullHD video. Downsized video is averaged from the whole sensor area. Thanks to this the noise level is a bit lower. The video material was post processed with Neat Video, which is a widely used noise reduction plugin. Some shots on the beach were shot at ISO80000 and f1.4 lens. For a full frame sensor it is not a big deal to go that high and get decent result. With my 4239T-ASE I would get identical brightness of this scene with 70% gain, which is an equivalent of ISO40000 plus f1.0 lens.

I have to agree, the bitrate is too low for 4K cams from Dahua. A maximum of 10Mbps is not enough to keep up with all the details the camera is delivering. However after turning on smart codec I noticed a significant improvement of the quality. So I highly recommend using smart codec for a 4K cam. The A7s uses 50Mbps codec. My Panasonic FZ1000 uses 100Mbps for 4K video.

 

[CCTVCam]

I wasn't aware there was a Mkiii. In a way better still, but only if Sony is of a mind to make the original available OEM for a usable price. Yes, I know the sensor is full frame, that why it performs so well. Pixels size matter for low light.

As for the ISO, that's not the only video out there. In others I've seen the ISO go as high as 250,000 with acceptable noise (its not totally clean). There's another clip here where that is the case, albeit for us purists we'd probably moan above ISO 80K as you say. That said as well though, in an urban setting, you wouldn't be in total darkness anyway.




BTW the A7S can record in 4K video and low light. I'm not going to post anymore Yotuube links atm, as it's kind of off topic. My point was there are 4K sensors available with exceptional low light performance, especially in partial darkness. The A7 is not the only SLR out there now with these kind of capabilities. However, the limiting factors are availability, price and potential lens cost (lets not forget many of these videos are using high end lenses, something that wouldn't be cost effective for CCTV).

There are even some 4K compact cameras with good low light performance with video, something that's probably closer to what could be transitioned more reasonably to CCTV formats / budgets.

 

[wopi82]

Sorry, it is indeed recording 4K. Dpreview web page is full of mistakes
I've got an access to A7S II. Maybe I'll add some comparison when testing HFW2831T-ZS

 

[tomw]

Back this camera.

It looks like a big disapointment given the hype.

@Burton, have you had a chance to run it outside yet?

 

[Burton_Flooring]

Should have it up this week. Was left running the store w/ my brother-in-law for the week while others were on vacation so I didn't have time to "play" lol

 

[tomw]

hi. any progress on the testing?

 

[Burton_Flooring]

Yes, I've been swamped w/ work, but managed to get some night shots to do an interesting comparison. The short answer is that this camera has MUCH better optics than the Pro Series 8MP (I tested this against the $240 5831R-ZE and it meets or exceeds it's performance, even w/ it's poor bitrate).

@EMPIRETECANDY needs to do some digging for updated firmware though. The firmware is not as stable or glitch-free as the Pro Series. Which is the only reason I'm not using it in place of my 2MP starlight cams.

I'll post more pictures later, but here's some to wet your whistle. I found that enabling WDR on the 1831E is neither very helpful, nor as necessary as it is on the Pro Series, because it has pretty good WDR out of the box. The night shots below are with WDR OFF on the 1831E and @ 100 on the 5831R-ZE. Shutter speeds are the same.

Day:

5831R-ZE


1831E


Night:

5831R-ZE (WDR @100)

5831R-ZE (WDR @100 Forced Color w/ same settings)


1831E (No WDR same settings)

1831E (No WDR Flip-Flops between Color and B&W)


IPC-HDW2531R-ZS (WDR @10, other settings the same)


5231R-ZE (WDR @10 same settings) ...and this is why I left the starlight up where it was...lol.


Some observations:

1) This camera does excellent in color for some reason. (firmware update for noise while in B&W, or lens might need re-focused while in B&W mode to help w/ clarity at distance)

2) @ $135 this camera is an outstanding deal compared to the $240 5831R-ZE

3) This does really well when decoding in H.265 (nice clean image) BUT...the image is a little soft compared to H.264

4) Until the buggy firmware gets updated; I cannot recommend this camera. Settings don't stick sometimes, the IR light controls glitch like crazy when trying to set them, and it constantly flip-flops between B&W mode and Color at night.

Also, I might add that it seems like this fits between the 5MP H.265 Lite series and 8MP Pro Series for low light performance.

Dahua's Lux ratings are quite odd for this camera, due to the fact that it doesn't produce a very USABLE image at the lux levels of the true STARLIGHT's.

I had a screenshot of WDR on , but lost it, :-\ and it does get as bright as the 5231R-ZE but it's FUUUUUUUUUUUULL OF NOISE! lol

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Yes, I've been swamped w/ work, but managed to get some night shots to do an interesting comparison. The short answer is that this camera has MUCH better optics than the Pro Series 8MP (I tested this against the $240 5831R-ZE and it meets or exceeds it's performance, even w/ it's poor bitrate).

@EMPIRETECANDY needs to do some digging for updated firmware though. The firmware is not as stable or glitch-free as the Pro Series. Which is the only reason I'm not using it in place of my 2MP starlight cams.

I'll post more pictures later, but here's some to wet your whistle. I found that enabling WDR on the 1831E is neither very helpful, nor as necessary as it is on the Pro Series, because it has pretty good WDR out of the box. The night shots below are with WDR OFF on the 1831E and @ 100 on the 5831R-ZE. Shutter speeds are the same.

Day:

5831R-ZE
View attachment 32356

1831E
View attachment 32357

Night:

5831R-ZE (WDR @100)
View attachment 32358
5831R-ZE (WDR @100 Forced Color w/ same settings)
View attachment 32360

1831E (No WDR same settings)
View attachment 32359
1831E (No WDR Flip-Flops between Color and B&W)
View attachment 32361

IPC-HDW2531R-ZS (WDR @10, other settings the same)
View attachment 32362

5231R-ZE (WDR @10 same settings) ...and this is why I left the starlight up where it was...lol.
View attachment 32363

Some observations:

1) This camera does excellent in color for some reason. (firmware update for noise while in B&W, or lens might need re-focused while in B&W mode to help w/ clarity at distance)

2) @ $135 this camera is an outstanding deal compared to the $240 5831R-ZE

3) This does really well when decoding in H.265 (nice clean image) BUT...the image is a little soft compared to H.264

4) Until the buggy firmware gets updated; I cannot recommend this camera. Settings don't stick sometimes, the IR light controls glitch like crazy when trying to set them, and it constantly flip-flops between B&W mode and Color at night.

Also, I might add that it seems like this fits between the 5MP H.265 Lite series and 8MP Pro Series for low light performance.

Dahua's Lux ratings are quite odd for this camera, due to the fact that it doesn't produce a very USABLE image at the lux levels of the true STARLIGHT's.

I had a screenshot of WDR on , but lost it, :-\ and it does get as bright as the 5231R-ZE but it's FUUUUUUUUUUUULL OF NOISE! lol

Hey buddy, what is your latest FW Version for the IPC-HFW1831E? Only more and more bugs found then can make it a good cam, lol.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

already get a new firmware for the IPC-HFW1831E, IPC-HFW2831T-ZE, 2018--07-31,should be the latest now.

IPC-HFW1831E New Firmware DH_IPC-HX2(1)XXX-Sag_EngSpnFrn_NP_V2.622.0000000.8.R.180731.bin

 

[Burton_Flooring]

Yes!! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!! All problems w/ interface have been fixed! (Can now adjust sliders w/ out them getting "stuck" on the mouse cursor)

@EMPIRETECANDY The firmware that the camera shipped w/ is 2.622.0000000.4.R, Build Date: 2018-04-29.

I will set this back up and get some more night shots w/ exactly matched settings. What's really interesting, is how this performs in color compared to the 4231EM-ASE...see for yourself.

1831E (Shutter @Customized Range 0-14ms / WDR @1 / 3DNR @50 / Gain @50 / Gamma @35 )

4231EM-ASE (Shutter @Customized Range 0-13ms / WDR @10 / 3DNR @20 / Gain 50)