Looking for a camera security system.

nuraman00 said:
Steve from Dahau said he's going to have other installers reach out to me. Since the aforementioned one no longer orders Dahau. And I said the first one's labor rates were almost double other installers (which the installer told me up front would the case).
Click to expand...
Buy the cameras, buy quality cable, pay a professional to run the cable and wire up the cameras...no need to pay gouging rates...you will not only save on the labor but will save 50 percent or more on the cams....any installer who told you that domes are more vandal resistant that turrets is lying..avoid domes...the turret locks into position...if the camera can be reached it can be easily disabled regardless of the design...
 
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Hi @nuraman00

Would you like to share your experiences in terms of rough idea of pricing that the installers are charging in your area of the USA? I think others who are also considering installers would be interested.

Thank You
 
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It is the consensus of this board, that has a LOT of experienced good people here, that:
Avoid domes and bullets outdoors.
This cam will walk all over everything else at night: Dahua Starlight IPC-HDW5231R-ZE 800 meter capable ePOE or this cam: Dahua Starlight Varifocal Turret (IPC-HDW5231R-Z)
You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
Most installers really don't have a clue what they are doing as far as choosing the right camera for the job.
They install the equipment they can make the most profit on, and can install the quickest.
Camera vandalism is a rare occurrence, even if it happens, if the system was designed properly, you will already have a picture of the perp by the time he mess's with a camera.

@fenderman gave you the best advice a couple of post's up.
 
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mat200 said:
Hi @nuraman00

Would you like to share your experiences in terms of rough idea of pricing that the installers are charging in your area of the USA? I think others who are also considering installers would be interested.

Thank You
Click to expand...

Give me a few days. I'll get back to this.

Also, when I post this, the quotes I got were at various stages in this process. Some were early on, when I was considering 5 cameras outdoors, 2 indoors.

I've also checked the prices, most aren't really marking up the price. A few said that they're not making money on the parts, it's the installation that they're in it for.
 
fenderman said:
Buy the cameras, buy quality cable, pay a professional to run the cable and wire up the cameras...no need to pay gouging rates...you will not only save on the labor but will save 50 percent or more on the cams....any installer who told you that domes are more vandal resistant that turrets is lying..avoid domes...the turret locks into position...if the camera can be reached it can be easily disabled regardless of the design...
Click to expand...

I did not know this. I will also confirm this with Steve from Dahau, and/or the new installers who reach out to me.

I suppose spraying the camera lens to cover it, or any other type of camera tampering, can be done on any type of camera, whether turret or dome.

I was never considering bullets.

How can a dome be disabled?
 
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nuraman00 said:
Here are 3 dome cameras. What are the differences between them?

Dahua Technology - Leading Video Surveillance Solution Provider with CCTV Products, IP Camera, PTZ, HDCVI products, NVR, Intelligent Building, Intelligent Transportation and Software - Dahua Technology

Dahua Technology - Leading Video Surveillance Solution Provider with CCTV Products, IP Camera, PTZ, HDCVI products, NVR, Intelligent Building, Intelligent Transportation and Software - Dahua Technology

Dahua Technology - Leading Video Surveillance Solution Provider with CCTV Products, IP Camera, PTZ, HDCVI products, NVR, Intelligent Building, Intelligent Transportation and Software - Dahua Technology

#1 seems like it zooms less than # 2 and # 3.

# 1 and #2 seems like it supports PoE+ while # 3 doesn't.

Can anyone else confirm? Is there anything else?
Click to expand...

Just for my knowledge, can someone please confirm or explain the differences between these?
 
mat200 said:
Hi @nuraman00

Would you like to share your experiences in terms of rough idea of pricing that the installers are charging in your area of the USA? I think others who are also considering installers would be interested.

Thank You
Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay.

Here are the quotes. When I'm listing the prices, it includes all quantities, not price per.

So if I say the 5 cameras, $995, that $995 is the combined price for 5 cameras, not price per camera.

1) Company A:

8 channel, 4 TB NVR
5 4MP fixed lens turret cameras
23" LED Monitor
Power supply, cables, etc.
Tax
Labor

$3,300

The didn't itemize the quote.

I didn't like talking with them. They said fixed lens are sharper than varifocals.

2) Company B:

16 channel NVR, $800
2 TB HD (x2), $280
5 4 MP 2.8mm fixed lens dome cameras, $995
2 4MP 4mm fixed lens dome cameras, $398
2 4MP 2.8mm fixed lens dome cameras with mic, $420
RJ45 connectors, $35
cat5 cable, $140
Junction boxes, $154
Power strips, clamps, pipe, etc. $190
Remote configuration installation, $190
HDMI extender, $120
Labor, $1900

Total: $5431

In November, I asked for the labor if I got 8 cameras. It went from $1900 to $2300.

In speaking with them, they're ok. I prefer not using their Sony cameras though, as I think others are better. And I don't want those fixed lens cameras.

They said I could also buy my own parts, but then I'd have to buy everything.

They said if I bought my own parts, they recommended Hikivision.

I wouldn't be getting the cameras with mics anymore. At the time, I was thinking of 2 indoor cameras. But a few weeks later, I decided against it. And I never said I wanted mics, they just put that in their quote.

This quote was early on in the process.

3) Company C:

Dahau 8 channel NVR, $402
8 TB HD, $315
6 Dahua Lite N42AM3Z ($291 each), $1746 (EDIT: This looks like it's on sale right now at BH Photo Video for $190, whereas other sites are charging $369)
2 Dahau DH-IPC-HFW44A1EN, $320
2 junction mounts for the bullet cameras: $40
6 junction mounts for the domes, $97.50
2 POE switches, $398
router, $49
cat5 cable, $200
Warning signs, $24
Misc hardware, $500
HDMI Extender, $140
cat 5 extender, $25
19" HDMI monitor, $125
35 hours of labor, $4375
Total with tax, $9172.69

He came over for an on-site estimate.

Overall I liked him and his knowledge. But, as he told me right away, he said he has high labor charges. His hourly rate is both high, and he's estimating more hours.

Almost anything I've asked him, I've liked his answers.

4) Company D:

Dahau 8 channel, 2 TB NVR: $525
5 fixed lens domes, $1375
Installation and labor, $1200
Misc hardware, cables, connectors, power supply: $170
Tax: $207
Total: $3477

He also did an onsite visit. I liked enough of his knowledge and answers. However, I asked for a revised quote on September 24th, and despite numerous texts, emails, and phone calls, he still hasn't given it to me.

Then a few weeks ago, he said he no longer supplies Dahau parts, and that I have to either buy my own parts, or use his LTS parts.

Which I wouldn't be completely opposed to if he ever gave me an updated quote for 8 cameras and other revisions like I asked.

But I've had to start exploring other options.

5) Company E: (Parts only):

5 4MP fixed lens dome: $225 each
8 channel NVR, no hard drive (it would be cheaper to add my own hard drive): $600

If I wanted a turret camera:

2 MP, fixed lens: $165

If I wanted a varifocal camera:

4MP, varifocal: $400

If I wanted a 16 channel NVR:

16 channel NVR, $700


Overall, they were ok in answering my questions.

However, I prefer going through an installer.

And I think Dahau, for example, provides better and cheaper parts, especially for varifocals.


I wanted someone with the knowledge of Company C, but labor charges more in line with Company B or D.

So, Steve from Dahau is trying to find other Dahau installers in my area.

I'm also not buying a monitor from an installer anymore.

I have a 49" monitor that I have in mind.

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-XBR55X9...id=1493924807&sr=8-2&keywords=Sony+X900E&th=1
 
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nuraman00 said:
Here are 3 dome cameras. What are the differences between them?

IPC-HDBW5231E-Z5E

IPC-HDBW5231E-ZE

Dahua Technology - Leading Video Surveillance Solution Provider with CCTV Products, IP Camera, PTZ, HDCVI products, NVR, Intelligent Building, Intelligent Transportation and Software - Dahua Technology

#1 seems like it zooms less than # 2 and # 3.

# 1 and #2 seems like it supports PoE+ while # 3 doesn't.

Can anyone else confirm? Is there anything else?
Click to expand...

Can someone help answer this?

nuraman00 said:
I did not know this. I will also confirm this with Steve from Dahau, and/or the new installers who reach out to me.

I suppose spraying the camera lens to cover it, or any other type of camera tampering, can be done on any type of camera, whether turret or dome.

I was never considering bullets.

How can a dome be disabled?
Click to expand...

Can someone please provide an example?
 
nuraman00 said:
I did not know this. I will also confirm this with Steve from Dahau, and/or the new installers who reach out to me.

I suppose spraying the camera lens to cover it, or any other type of camera tampering, can be done on any type of camera, whether turret or dome.

I was never considering bullets.

How can a dome be disabled?
Click to expand...
Spray paint... tape, any type of cover....any exposed wiring can be cut...don't over analyze it...
 
looney2ns said:
It is the consensus of this board, that has a LOT of experienced good people here, that:
Avoid domes and bullets outdoors.
This cam will walk all over everything else at night: Dahua Starlight IPC-HDW5231R-ZE 800 meter capable ePOE or this cam: Dahua Starlight Varifocal Turret (IPC-HDW5231R-Z)
You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
Most installers really don't have a clue what they are doing as far as choosing the right camera for the job.
They install the equipment they can make the most profit on, and can install the quickest.
Camera vandalism is a rare occurrence, even if it happens, if the system was designed properly, you will already have a picture of the perp by the time he mess's with a camera.

@fenderman gave you the best advice a couple of post's up.
Click to expand...

fenderman said:
Spray paint... tape, any type of cover....any exposed wiring can be cut...don't over analyze it...
Click to expand...

Thanks. And what do you think about 2MP vs 4 MP in general, without knowing a specific layout?
 
fenderman said:
unless you will have good amounts of light 24/7 go with the starlights...
Click to expand...

Right. But here's a 2 MP (and the one recommended above):

IPC-HDW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

And here's a 4 MP:

IPC-HDW5431R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

What are your thoughts on using a 2 MP vs. 4 MP?

Both of these are the starlights, right?

Also, is this below the same as the 5231R-Z?

Dahua Technology 2MP Starlight Outdoor HD-CVI Eyeball A22AH9Z

It doesn't say that model number. But it does say "Dahua Technology 2MP Starlight Outdoor HD-CVI Eyeball Camera with 2.7-13.5mm Lens and Night Vision".
 
nuraman00 said:
Right. But here's a 2 MP (and the one recommended above):

IPC-HDW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

And here's a 4 MP:

IPC-HDW5431R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

What are your thoughts on using a 2 MP vs. 4 MP?

Both of these are the starlights, right?

Also, is this below the same as the 5231R-Z?

Dahua Technology 2MP Starlight Outdoor HD-CVI Eyeball A22AH9Z

It doesn't say that model number. But it does say "Dahua Technology 2MP Starlight Outdoor HD-CVI Eyeball Camera with 2.7-13.5mm Lens and Night Vision".
Click to expand...
the 4mp is not a starlight...
the cvi is NOT an ip camera.
 
nuraman00 said:
So the 5231R-Z says it's a "1/2.8” 2Megapixel progressive scan STARVIS™ CMOS".

The 4 MP one says "4Megapixel progressive scan CMOS".

Does the STARVIS make the 5231R-Z a starlight?



Good catch! I now noticed in the "specifications", that there isn't a "network" section.
Click to expand...

You are overthinking it way too much. You've been given the answers. Do what you want, but the 5231rz will stomp all over the 4mp at night. It's been discussed here many times. Search.
 
Tizeye said:
There has been a lot of discussion of field of view (FOV), in this case a 2.8 lens returning 101degree horizontal coverage, but as you throw numbers around...what does it really mean. Still photography has standardized it with a baseline measurement, while video (and surveillance cameras) may say the same exact thing but in a different language. Perhaps this will help to put FOV into perspective, as you will see "35mm equivalent" labeled next to lens. Essentially, it is taking the sensor size/focal length and noting the equivalent focal length based on the old 35mm size (now also know as full frame sensor). Sounds confusing but really quite simple...and I am fortunate enough to have a full frame digital camera so don't have to adjust it further, like when I had a crop sensor APC camera which had a 1.5x multiplier, where the security cameras discussed with a 1/2.5" sensor has around a 5x multiplier. I could essentially put that size lens on my camera (or note the zoom reading) to determine exactly what fixed lens I needed for the required coverage.

For reference, the 2.8mm lens with a 1/2.5" sensor returning 101 degree FOV would require an 18mm lens on a full frame sensor for about the same 101 FOV. That is an ultra-wide angle lens. Among the 8 megapixel 4K cameras, Andy doesn't sell the 2.8mm lens camera like he does with the lower megapixel offerings, usually special order, he only sells the 4mm lens version which has an 87 FOV on the same 1/2.5" sensor. On a full frame equivalent, that would be around a 25mm (24mm and 28mm are 'normal' wide angles).

For reference, here is the FOV for common lenses with the 35mm sensor. 50mm (the one that came standard on every camera and considered what the eye naturally sees) is 46 degree FOV; 35mm lens 63FOV; 28mm (most popular consumer wide angle) 75 FOV; 24mm (preferred by pros) 84 FOV, 20mm 94 FOV; 18mm 100 FOV and 16mm (non-fisheye) 107 FOV. Hope that helps.

It should be noted that this FOV equivalent only applies to FOV and not the other lens characteristic, such as depth of field.
Click to expand...

Tizeye said:
A few points in reply to your post...
1) Be careful of EvilBay, China seller or otherwise is immaterial, and I say that as an EBay seller. You have no idea how many of my auctions have been cancelled or high bidder removed due to bidder fraud which Ebay is fairly good at catching. The same could be said in reverse concerning sellers. Concerning security cameras - many of the low priced cameras with near identical model numbers are designed for the China market where firmware cannot be updated for international and cheaper construction - plastic housing where is metal on international version, etc.
2) AliExpress (Alibaba) is basically the Amazon of China and is even listed on the NYSE with the symbol BABA. Andy, who goes under the store name Empire Express as his user name on the forum has a very good reputation. My first order was basically 2 day delivery from China to the US east coast when you adjust for the International Date Line. (It left China and arrived in Cincinnati and clearing customs same day but hours before it left China!) My second order is in progress with slight delay due to 3.6mm camera was out of stock but good communication on both orders with direct emails from Andy. Only problems/issues - return policies are not as generous as may be use to, so know what you are ordering, and both time, VISA has tagged it in their fraud prevention department so had to jump through the extra hoop letting VISA know I placed an order in China. Since it is hard to find on this forum, and Andy doesn't actively promote, I bookmarked the site. Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group AliExpress website is a bit quirky to navigate. The blue banner line, and sub menus keep you in the store. However, if you use the search bar at top or use the web path links to navigate, you leave the store and go to all stores on AliExpress and not be aware on another vendor's page.
3) Not surprised Dahua only shows 1080p kits on their web page and doesn't even show all models of individual products - such as 8 MP turrets in the US. They are not going to compete with their re-branding vendors such as Lorex and don't even list them as 'compatible models'. The same is true of Lorex. Notice how on their website, both kits and individual products, don't even list the LNK71082T (4k NVR's are 6000 and 9000 series) or the 8MP LKB33B which are in the Costco LOrex kit. Lorex only shows the 6000 and 9000 4K NVR series which by photo is materially different from the Costco 7108 lacking the rear exhaust fan - which might be a good thing considering the noise issues with that fan. Likewise, the only 8MP 4K camera is the LNB8111B which looks identical to the the LKB33B.
4) Concering your links - something to be aware of on Dahua model numbers. Notice how some have a middle designator "16P" (or 8P, 32P etc) where others don't. Those models with the "P" have a built in PoE switch (and the noisy rear fan) for the stated number of ports (8, 16, 24, 32 etc) where those without, you need to provide your own switch with sufficient number of PoE ports. The other part of the model number, 4216 and 5216 in your links, Dahua list them as "Lite" and "Pro" selling side by side, but I tend to think of as last year and current year models. About the only difference is that the 4000 series record rate is 200mbps where the 5000 series record rate is 320mbps, so if price is similar, get the 5000 series. The last digit indicates the number of ports that the NVR's firmware can support as the non-P models dependent on an external switch only have a single uplink port in the back. Incidently, the Lorex LNK9082 that I am returning, specwise matches up with the 4208-8P both from marketing photos of external features - back panel arrangement, plus internal pictures of components seen on this forum - and this thread.
5) You may want to go ahead an get the Costco with their generous return policy. It will answer a lot of your questions and give great insight. Personally, when I installed, I crimped and ran my own wires to the custom length, so re-packing for return was simple as it just required taking down cameras but leaving wires in place...and you will never rewind the provided wires that tightly to put back in the box. Cat5e is sufficient, but I upgraded to Cat6 and both a available at Monoprice.
Hope that helps
Click to expand...

Philip Gonzales said:
I don't think you will have to worry about your ISP limit unless you are streaming remotely 24x7. Me and my family use about 200-300GB per month, sometimes maybe even 500GB. We watch netflex and hulu for several hours a day almost everyday.

Whenever you are recording, usually you are recording locally. By locally I mean your NVR and IP cameras will be communicating with each other over private IP addresses. This traffic will not go out your router. Basically it will go from your cam, directly through your NVR (Possibly through a PoE switch if your NVR does not come with built in PoE ports). Since it does not go out your router to the internet then it will not use any bandwidth from your ISP. When you are viewing footage on your monitors, this traffic is also coming straight from the NVR via HDMI, again no bandwith used. Let's say you want to view footage from a smartphone or computer. If you are connected to your network (wifi or hardwired in your home) then again no bandwidth used. Now if you are remote (outside of your house) and you want to pull up your cameras on a smartphone or computer, this traffic will indeed be using bandwidth. How much depends on several different factors, like your max upload speed, how many cameras and at what resolutions your are viewing them, if the DVR allows you to limit the upload, etc.

I watch my cameras remotely from work several times a day, for a few minutes each time. Maybe as much as 10 or 20 times a day if something interesting is going on or if I am bored at work and what not. I use Blue Iris and there is an option to limit the bandwidth of the stream. I usually limit my stream to 4mbps, which seems to be more than enough as far as clarity goes, when viewing remotely. Still my total bandwidth used per month is around 200-300GB a month. You will likely notice a small increase if you review your footage remotely often but I doubt you will have any worries of going over 1TB unless you are watching it remotely for hours and hours on end.

Just my 2 cents, but if I were you what I would do is just buy 8 Dahua 5231's from Andy and get your installer to install them. If you need help dialing in the settings after he sets them up I'm sure we could assist. They run a little less than $175 a piece if I remember correctly. They are the best bang for your buck ip cam you can get. They are reliable even in very hot, cold, wet, etc, environments. They have superb low light capabilities. They are varifocal so you can zoom in as tight as needed for the perfect viewing "window". They have SD card slots so that you can have a backup of your video in case your DVR Hard Drives fail. To me I don't see why anyone would want to stray from what has proven time and time again to work. If you search 5231 on this forum you will see how blown away each and every person is that has installed these, including myself. Generally when the sensor size is the same, less MP means better low light performance. 2MP is plenty for daytime, and for nightime anymore and you end up with a worse night image. If you are not concerned with night time then you can get higher MP cameras.

IPC-HDW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Hopefully this info helped a bit as I tend to ramble on sometimes.
Click to expand...

Re-reading these posts again (some of which are from August 2017), I finally figured out who Andy was.

And his SN:

EMPIRETECANDY

Why is it preferable to buy through him, and not directly through the Ali Express site?

DAHUA English 2MP WDR IR Eyeball IP Camera IPC HDW5231RP Z 2.7mm 12mm motorized lens Starlight Network Camera IPC HDW5231R Z -in Surveillance Cameras from Security & Protection on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


One other question.

Earlier, when the installers were recommending 4MP cameras, I was thinking of getting the NVR with 2 HDMI, so I could output one to my 1080p TV downstairs, and one one at 4MP to my 4K TV upstairs (not yet purchased). With a HDMI Extender.

Dahua Technology Pro Series 16-Channel DHI-NVR54A16-16P-4KS2 B&H

But, if I get 2MP cameras, then I'll be outputting at the same resolution regardless. So I could use a HDMI splitter and HDMI Extender, and get the NVR with 1 HDMI port, right?

Dahua Technology Pro Series 16-Channel DHI-NVR52A16-16P-4KS2 B&H


I'm also confused about a few things about this listing, which I got from Andy's Ali Express page listed above.

Aliexpress.com : Buy NVR5216 16P 4KS2E 16 Channel 1U 16PoE 4K&H.265 Pro Network Video Recorder NVR5216 16P 4KS2E,free DHL shipping from Reliable Surveillance Video Recorder suppliers on Empire Technology Co., Ltd

1)

Why does it say "Compression format H.265" and "Video Compression Format H.264"? Why are there two categories and two different values?

2)

What does it mean by this?
16 ports (IEEE802.3af/at)

1-8 ports support ePoE & EoC
Click to expand...


Only 8 ports support ePoE?
 
looney2ns said:
Do what you want, but the 5231rz will stomp all over the 4mp at night. It's been discussed here many times. Search.
Click to expand...

I had spent hours earlier reading the forums, over the months, and I just wasn't finding the discussions on night or low light.

There was a day on a December evening where I was just reading the forums for 3 - 4 hours, and I wasn't finding it.

I searched again now.

I am seeing some good pictures and videos now. It seems that there have been some nice threads in 2018.

This video in post # 27 is nice:

Upgrade time! Need Suggestions for better night performance.

Lots of pictures and videos posted in this thread:

Attempt at car theft. 1080p Dahua ip.
 
Just an update. Steve from Dahau has finally found me another installer.

We will begin the conversation later this week. I can tell him what I'm looking for, based on the previous estimates and recommendations here.
 
 
nuraman00 said:
Just an update. Steve from Dahau has finally found me another installer.

We will begin the conversation later this week. I can tell him what I'm looking for, based on the previous estimates and recommendations here.
Click to expand...

Another update.

I had a phone call with the new potential installer.

He's doing an onsite evaluation tomorrow.

One other thing he said was that Dahau manufactures in California now, and that their model numbers will have a shorter code.

Also, if someone could help answer questions from post #116, that would be great. Questions about which NVR; why the listing says both compression H.264 and H.265 on different line items, and what a specification means by "1-8 ports support ePoE & EoC". What about the other ports 9-16?
 
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